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What have we learned in 2,065 years?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should
be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands
should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.  People
must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

Cicero    - 55 BC


Evidently nothing!

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How so true this is, NOW if we could just get everyone to see it!!!

This teacher is truly a genius!
As the late Adrian Rogers said, "you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
This man is truly a genius! An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had
never failed a single student before, but had once failed an entire class.
That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".
All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so
no one would fail and no one would receive an A...
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.
As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
That economics professor was not only wise about the system and how to teach effectively, but also about human nature. Too bad that's one group of students who had to learn the hard way. But then, isn't that true of all humans in general! We're all inclined to take the path of least resistance when presented with the opportunity to do so, unless we purposefully choose not to.
Wasn't Cicero paid to be a Senator? Wasn't he rich? Didn't he own slaves? Weren't the people on public assistance retired and disabled soldiers? Didn't the Roman empire last another 500 years despite Cicero's comments? Does the fact that someone had the same gripes as you 2000 years ago somehow make them valid or just interesting?

The teacher was demonstrating a communist dictatorship not socialism. Had the class been run on socialist grounds the teacher would have given extra tuition to the poorly performing students.

Not many people become rich by being kind, generous or honest. White collar Psychopaths often end up at the top of the corporate ladder at the expense of everyone else. Literally. Socialist societies aim to limit the excesses of the very rich as well as look after the interests of the poor. I have no problem paying my taxes when they are used for a good cause. Greed is not good.
hmm.... I wonder where you fellows found these? Good discussion anyhow.
Wonder when historians think the fall of Rome began? Wonder what kind of social behaviors, political beliefs and governmental choices they think led to it?
Those kind, generous and honest people you mentioned are rich in things money will never buy.
Their very lack of greed makes them a refreshing blessing to hang with.
Some of those Psychopaths eventually end up on the third floor at SSMH, and other like facilities, being treated by men in white suites. Others find themselves in jail with no freedom. A few do suceed in swindling to retirement and escape notice....wonder how happy they are?
I pay may taxes becaus I am to "render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars's". That doesn't mean I agree with what they do with it.
Thee church is called to give to the poor, the widows, and the orphans. For some reason we are letting the Gov. do what we should do. Look at the mess it's gotten us into. Bet we local churches could take care of our local needs a whole lot better. Then again we gotta' change Gov. so the money don't go to taxes and we can put it where it should be. Might also help if we got off our collective lazy bottoms.
Greed is indeed not good, according to the Bible it is idolatry. The idol of the socialist is the state and its central planners. White collar psychopaths are the product of a political entrepreneurial(mercantalism) culture, not a market entrepreneurial culture. In a free or real market people have to meet the needs of a customer, which makes some people richer than others, but all are equal before the law. A socialist society steals from those who have actually met people's needs and redistributes it to those who have not. True market capitalism does not produce greed but wealth for everyone-especially those that have earned it. The Roman Republic was a good thing because everyone worked at producing something, the Roman Empire was a bad thing, because it conquered people and stole their wealth-Romans became parasites by living on other people's wealth. That is why they needed to get back to work and stop stealing.

Steve

Denise said:
Wasn't Cicero paid to be a Senator? Wasn't he rich? Didn't he own slaves? Weren't the people on public assistance retired and disabled soldiers? Didn't the Roman empire last another 500 years despite Cicero's comments? Does the fact that someone had the same gripes as you 2000 years ago somehow make them valid or just interesting?

The teacher was demonstrating a communist dictatorship not socialism. Had the class been run on socialist grounds the teacher would have given extra tuition to the poorly performing students.

Not many people become rich by being kind, generous or honest. White collar Psychopaths often end up at the top of the corporate ladder at the expense of everyone else. Literally. Socialist societies aim to limit the excesses of the very rich as well as look after the interests of the poor. I have no problem paying my taxes when they are used for a good cause. Greed is not good.
Socialist do idolise either the state or it's planners. This is just plain silly!

Psychopaths appear to be born that way, they are not a product of any polical culture. The extent to which they are allowed to abuse the rest of us is.

Whether some people are richer than others has a great deal more to do with the circumstances of their birth than any free market. People who gain wealth usually sequester it so that their children DON'T have to compete in the free market. True market capitalism can never produce wealth for everyone as there will always be sick, elderly and intellectually disadvantaged people. There will also always be ruthless, greedy, and theiving people who will exploit the others.

The people of a society have to decide what kind of society they wish to live in. Do they want an organised society with cities, roads, electricity, museums, courts, police, education and health or a free-for all anarchistic society where what they get depends entirely on their own entrepreneurial skills or the luck of the draw in their circumstances of birth? If they want an organised society it needs to be paid for. If an entrepreneur seriously loses their health, should they also lose their house and wealth to pay for their medical bills? Some of us think not.

Extreme capitalism does not work any better than extreme socialism. We need to have a balance where entrepreneurs can flourish, whilst at the same time looking after the people that need it. It does not have to be either/or, it can and should be both.




Steve Belttari said:
Greed is indeed not good, according to the Bible it is idolatry. The idol of the socialist is the state and its central planners. White collar psychopaths are the product of a political entrepreneurial(mercantalism) culture, not a market entrepreneurial culture. In a free or real market people have to meet the needs of a customer, which makes some people richer than others, but all are equal before the law. A socialist society steals from those who have actually met people's needs and redistributes it to those who have not. True market capitalism does not produce greed but wealth for everyone-especially those that have earned it. The Roman Republic was a good thing because everyone worked at producing something, the Roman Empire was a bad thing, because it conquered people and stole their wealth-Romans became parasites by living on other people's wealth. That is why they needed to get back to work and stop stealing.

Steve

Denise said:
Wasn't Cicero paid to be a Senator? Wasn't he rich? Didn't he own slaves? Weren't the people on public assistance retired and disabled soldiers? Didn't the Roman empire last another 500 years despite Cicero's comments? Does the fact that someone had the same gripes as you 2000 years ago somehow make them valid or just interesting?

The teacher was demonstrating a communist dictatorship not socialism. Had the class been run on socialist grounds the teacher would have given extra tuition to the poorly performing students.

Not many people become rich by being kind, generous or honest. White collar Psychopaths often end up at the top of the corporate ladder at the expense of everyone else. Literally. Socialist societies aim to limit the excesses of the very rich as well as look after the interests of the poor. I have no problem paying my taxes when they are used for a good cause. Greed is not good.
Denise,

You have spoken in the same manner as an Atheist. I suspect you must be one. Atheist don't believe in the reality of love. As a result, they believe everyone has to be forced to act in a Christian manner. Of course, atheist depend on a certain level of Christian morality to make themselves look better than the immoral people they really are and want to be in their heart. They just don't like feeling guilty so they want to pay other people to do that which a neighbor is suppose to do. Atheist just lack the backbone to love themselves and just throw money at problems. Secularism always leads to bankruptcy...which is where America is heading. Europe is already there.

God Bless...
This discussion is continued in another thread; "We live in Dark and Dangerous Times".
Hi everyone,
A few comments on replies I've read:
(1) The professor did indeed make a powerful point regarding how MANKIND thinks commune principles should be applied. In the New Testament, all Christians had all things shared equally among them and all things common. How'd they do that in a Godly manner?
(2) For certain, greed (the love of money) is evil.
(3) I too believe the church has been severely negligent and that the government has had to step into the void, while at the same time the church thinks it is well set, rich, and in need of nothing.
(4) The book of Daniel, in the prophecy of the kingdoms through the golden image to the iron one standing on clay toes, very clearly explains the inferiority of democratic-styled governments.

I am amazed at how polarized this discussion has become. Has anyone out there perceived the balance inherent in Cicero's comments?
Blessings, Dave
Dave,

The idea of community belongs to those who are members of the Kingdom of God. God's people are to depend on the God who works through other believers. I think most Christians reject the idea of a Theocracy. I also get a good laugh when liberals use the Bible to teach socialism. I believe that the Kingdom of God will be a dictatorship with Jesus as King and Lord of Lords.

The second point is the failings of the church does not mean that love is replaced by forced behavior. If your thinking is applied to the church, it would go something like this. If a person does not give a tithe to the church, we should be able to force that person to give it up. I think every Christian I know rejects this way of thinking. If love fails, there is no hope!! The Body of Christ is called to love and recognition of the needs by our leaders brings us to the point of acting within the body of Christ. We know from history that forced action on the part of the government is dangerous and eventually leads to bad things because it is leading society away from the love of God. In fact, america is just about bankrupt now. Secularism just doesn't work because it does not involve love. Secularism is theft and does not allow for love or sacrificial giving towards a need.

God Bless...

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