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     The U.S. Supreme Court defines atheism as a religion.  There is various criteria that the court uses to evaluate what constitutes a religion.  One of the criteria is the devotional aspect of a religion.  In the past, the court decided that atheism is indeed a religion, because of the obvious devotion of its adherents.  So if we desire to evangelize the atheists, I think that we have to look at them as being members of another religion.  When Christian missionaries go into other lands, one of the things that they have to deal with is the established religious practices of its people.  In our own land,  It is the established state religion of atheism:  The public school system.  This is the stronghold that we should focus on if we want to evangelize atheists.  Not an easy thing to do of course.  Even with proven incompetence, most people still don't see compulsory public education as being an evil institution.  The real reason that they don't see it this way, is because it comes from us, the Church.  It was Protestant reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin who advocated using the coercive apparatus of the state to indoctrinate children to be Christians.  The Lord will not use the state to indoctrinate children to be His disciples, but Satan will use it to dupe people.  So we must "cast down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ".    

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Harris,
I have more bizarre things to say. I'm not a regular church goer, because I don't know of any churches that even come close to resembling the early Church, though I do think that God(if He exists of course) uses them in a limited way. So there is this new church that opened up in the area where I live, I was under the impression that they were not incorporated into the state, so I started occasionally attending church services there. I thought the sermons were pretty good, even though the sermon format is not scriptural, it comes from the Greek demagogue-orator-rhetorical style. I thought the people that I began to meet had the fruit of the Spirit(love, joy, peace, etc...), but then I found out that they were just another church that was incorporated into the state, so I started to lose interest and stopped attending. Then one day I received a letter in the mail from the church, inviting me to attend church at their new location-a public high school. I was intrigued by this, and thought it over for a week before attending a service. Even though I don't agree with them on what I mentioned above, they do teach the basic doctrines of Christianity(death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, virgin birth-incarnation, etc...), so I think it is the Lord's will that they are there. I had a really blessed night at the Christmas eve service. A former student of the high school, who now produces films at the Detroit Institute of Arts, gave his testimony on how he became an atheist because of his experience there and all the vanity and misery he went through before receiving the Lord into his life. Amazing how the Lord uses things like this for His own purposes, as the scripture says: "All things work together for good for those that love God and are called according to His purpose".Harris Tweed said:
What a bizarre thing to say.
That is confusing...how can atheism be considered a religon. leave it to the government to not check out websters dictionary before making a statement. LOL!

No way it can be defined as a religon..it is anti-religon/anti-god. It is impossible to be a religon.

Steve I can appreciate your gusto here...but an athiest CAN be evangelized. And athiest does not believe there is a god...of any type. Soooooo...a person who believes there is a god of some type... can change thier mind and they believe.

Why argue when it is totally possible. Put your energy inot just not believing there is a god. The people who believe there is a God....are given free-will. We actually believe that you are free to believe in not believing..LOL
I do not have time right now to go into the details of the cases and what the logic of the court was. I wasn't implying that atheists can not be evangelized, it isn't for me to judge who is a reprobate and who is not a reprobate. I believe in educational freedom, education should be completely privatized. However, when a religion controls government schools, it can lead to tyranny. The 1st instance of this in America was in Philadelphia, Pa 1844. Catholic parents didn't want their children to be taught out of the King James Bible, the Protestant school administrators were inflexible and would not accommodate them, so the Catholic parents withdrew their children from the schools(school was not compulsory then). That should have settled the matter, but the Catholics still were taxed to support the Protestant version of the faith, plus having to pay for their new schools that they started in response to the Protestant tyranny. This led to violence of course, churches were burned down and people were killed. How passive we have become.

Paige said:
That is confusing...how can atheism be considered a religon. leave it to the government to not check out websters dictionary before making a statement. LOL!

No way it can be defined as a religon..it is anti-religon/anti-god. It is impossible to be a religon.

Steve I can appreciate your gusto here...but an athiest CAN be evangelized. And athiest does not believe there is a god...of any type. Soooooo...a person who believes there is a god of some type... can change thier mind and they believe.

Why argue when it is totally possible. Put your energy inot just not believing there is a god. The people who believe there is a God....are given free-will. We actually believe that you are free to believe in not believing..LOL
I think the word rebel is fitting for subversive atheists. I said that you "probably" had not heard of what is commonly referred to as the "gap theory".

Harris Tweed said:
Steve Belttari said:
Harris,
I have more bizarre things to say. I'm not a regular church goer, because I don't know of any churches that even come close to resembling the early Church, though I do think that God(if He exists of course) uses them in a limited way. So there is this new church that opened up in the area where I live, I was under the impression that they were not incorporated into the state, so I started occasionally attending church services there. I thought the sermons were pretty good, even though the sermon format is not scriptural, it comes from the Greek demagogue-orator-rhetorical style. I thought the people that I began to meet had the fruit of the Spirit(love, joy, peace, etc...), but then I found out that they were just another church that was incorporated into the state, so I started to lose interest and stopped attending. Then one day I received a letter in the mail from the church, inviting me to attend church at their new location-a public high school. I was intrigued by this, and thought it over for a week before attending a service. Even though I don't agree with them on what I mentioned above, they do teach the basic doctrines of Christianity(death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, virgin birth-incarnation, etc...), so I think it is the Lord's will that they are there. I had a really blessed night at the Christmas eve service. A former student of the high school, who now produces films at the Detroit Institute of Arts, gave his testimony on how he became an atheist because of his experience there and all the vanity and misery he went through before receiving the Lord into his life. Amazing how the Lord uses things like this for His own purposes, as the scripture says: "All things work together for good for those that love God and are called according to His purpose".Harris Tweed said:
What a bizarre thing to say.

This wasn't bizarre. It was ramblings about your views of various protestant sects in your town. I'm not sure why you think it's all that surprising that you disavow yourself from the well established churches in your area. I don't really care all that much (other than to say inter-Christian strife is a winning situation for me) and you're not even close to the first person I've ever encountered that has these same opinions.

You thought I had never encountered a Christian who didn't believe the earth was 6000 years old too. You view yourself as a kind of rebel don't you? Sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren't.
Steve,

You stated, "education should be completely privatized."

I completely agree with your assessment. I think the government's role in education should come to an end. The government is not able to reflect the values of our society like they did in the past because of the vast amount of diversity. In order to keep our kids from indoctrination by the state, we will have to go to privatization. I am currently a strong supporter of vouchers!!
Harris,
I do not think that anyone who does not believe as I do is necessarily being subversive. The scripture says that "the fool has said in his heart that there is no God", Jesus Christ also said that if a man calls someone a fool he risks eternal damnation. It is God's Word that will judge the atheist on judgment day, not me. As far as the "gap theory", it is not a theory, but the truth. It is the Christians that teach that the Bible teaches that God created the earth 6000 years ago who are the heretics.

Harris Tweed said:
Steve Belttari said:
I think the word rebel is fitting for subversive atheists. I said that you "probably" had not heard of what is commonly referred to as the "gap theory".

Subversive? Ha! What is this 1954 or something? I'm sure you believe anyone who does not believe just as you do is subversive to one extent or another.

Sure I've heard of the "gap theory." Lots of Christians think it's heresy. I simply think it is an evolution of a meme that attempts (poorly) to reconcile what we know about the world with iron age scriptures. That particular meme doesn't appear to have a great deal of fitness and won't find its way into the mainstream. Still, there are niche populations where this meme can thrive. This seems like it's a small part of the continued branching of the Christian faith.
I think vouchers are a step in the right direction, but the long range goal must be complete privatization. That means a parent does not have to deal with the state at all concerning his child's education. Compulsory public education was always a bad idea. It doesn't matter that public schools reflect the cultures values, it is a matter of principle. Atheists control the public school system and they will continue to churn out atheists, so when the nation is predominantly atheists the schools will reflect the cultures values.

ZDENNY said:
Steve,

You stated, "education should be completely privatized."

I completely agree with your assessment. I think the government's role in education should come to an end. The government is not able to reflect the values of our society like they did in the past because of the vast amount of diversity. In order to keep our kids from indoctrination by the state, we will have to go to privatization. I am currently a strong supporter of vouchers!!
Steve,
When we talk about education and parental control I think we need to remember that not all parents are cut out to educate their children. I have seen the product of both kinds of parents. Children schooled by capable parents are amazing. Those schooled by parents who don't do the job well reflect the lack. This last makes private schools a great idea. ooops private school is expensive and we still need to pay taxes for public school. Some families are unable to do this. I wonder what would happen if Christians got involved in the open school board meetings, PTA etc. and put real pressure on the school to reflect their values and provide a more balance curiculum. What if those same parents made a real effort at home to show their student that the Bible is relavant? Maybe the could explain that the Old Testament is just history from another perspective.

I think the best anyone can do with evangelizing is present the Gospel and let the other decide what to do with info. It doesn't matter wether they are atheist or agnostice. Atheism a religion...that is humourous. Wonder what their symbol is.

As for Christian strife of course it happens. Every group has members with differing opions. For that matter, every church has faults. Harris of course you want to exploit this. Get us argueing and we forget about the God that we all believe in.


I think vouchers are a step in the right direction, but the long range goal must be complete privatization. That means a parent does not have to deal with the state at all concerning his child's education. Compulsory public education was always a bad idea. It doesn't matter that public schools reflect the cultures values, it is a matter of principle. Atheists control the public school system and they will continue to churn out atheists, so when the nation is predominantly atheists the schools will reflect the cultures values.
Lisa,

The United States is a dynamic culture with a strong Christian base, because of that, I think it is only a matter of time before Compulsory Public Education is filed away in the dustbin of history, with all the other bad ideas that came before it. I'm not unrealistic about the damage that has already been done, but we can't be fooled by all the brainwashing that says that the world would fall apart if we didn't have government schools. It is a proven fact that a child can learn the basics of reading, writing and rithmatic in 100 hours. Public schools keep children prisoners for 12 years and they still don't have it down. Our culture has lost it's moral compass as far as parents being the primary educators of a child, it is up to us Christians to provide the opportunity so they can fulfill God's given role for them. The other day, I was reading a book on Christian discipleship. Most of the book was edifying, but there was this part in the book that more or less was saying that it was a fait accompli that our children's walk with the Lord would be contaminated by COMPULSORY public schools. Um, excuse me. You say you are a Christian disciple that is obedient to Romans 13 vs 1, well, the Lord has instituted a popular democracy in the United States, if we don't want a state religion(evolutionary humanism-atheism) corrupting our children, it is up to us to change that.

Steve Lisa said:
Steve,
When we talk about education and parental control I think we need to remember that not all parents are cut out to educate their children. I have seen the product of both kinds of parents. Children schooled by capable parents are amazing. Those schooled by parents who don't do the job well reflect the lack. This last makes private schools a great idea. ooops private school is expensive and we still need to pay taxes for public school. Some families are unable to do this. I wonder what would happen if Christians got involved in the open school board meetings, PTA etc. and put real pressure on the school to reflect their values and provide a more balance curiculum. What if those same parents made a real effort at home to show their student that the Bible is relavant? Maybe the could explain that the Old Testament is just history from another perspective.

I think the best anyone can do with evangelizing is present the Gospel and let the other decide what to do with info. It doesn't matter wether they are atheist or agnostice. Atheism a religion...that is humourous. Wonder what their symbol is.

As for Christian strife of course it happens. Every group has members with differing opions. For that matter, every church has faults. Harris of course you want to exploit this. Get us argueing and we forget about the God that we all believe in.


I think vouchers are a step in the right direction, but the long range goal must be complete privatization. That means a parent does not have to deal with the state at all concerning his child's education. Compulsory public education was always a bad idea. It doesn't matter that public schools reflect the cultures values, it is a matter of principle. Atheists control the public school system and they will continue to churn out atheists, so when the nation is predominantly atheists the schools will reflect the cultures values.
Lisa, you stated it very well! I agree with you completely.

The Bible predicts a coming world government which will clearly have to rely on state indoctrination. They have the same thing going on in Germany now which of course never learned its lesson after Hitler. The German model is going to spread and people like Obama will think that the only way to control the people is to control the kids. Secularists don't believe in freedom because they don't believe in the real existence of love itself. If you don't believe in love, freedom is an illusion which means you have to have kids indoctrinated and societies have to be controled by manipulation.

Secularist believe that love is merely a positive feelings created by a physical state in the body and nothing more. The idea of love is part of the imagination having no foundation in reality.
Harris,
Maybe the next discussion that I start will be on 9/11, then we can talk about conspiracy theories. In light of the numerous inconsistencies in the official government conspiracy, there is an alternate conspiracy theory that is more likely the truth.

Harris Tweed said:
ZDENNY said:
Lisa, you stated it very well! I agree with you completely.

The Bible predicts a coming world government which will clearly have to rely on state indoctrination. They have the same thing going on in Germany now which of course never learned its lesson after Hitler. The German model is going to spread and people like Obama will think that the only way to control the people is to control the kids. Secularists don't believe in freedom because they don't believe in the real existence of love itself. If you don't believe in love, freedom is an illusion which means you have to have kids indoctrinated and societies have to be controled by manipulation.

Secularist believe that love is merely a positive feelings created by a physical state in the body and nothing more. The idea of love is part of the imagination having no foundation in reality.

*rolls eyes* Could you cram any more insane conspiracy theories into a short post than you did? Bravo.
Harris is always good for a laugh... :() Harris doesn't believe in Biblical prophecy so I suppose he won't believe in the coming one world government. If he watched the news he would notice that the Biblical predictions are actually in the progress of coming true; however, Harris don't believe in anything except what another atheist tells him. Have you ever heard of the UN? Have you ever heard of the UN dogma about raising children which denies parental rights? Do you know that Germany requires their kids to be indoctrinated by the state and people that homeschool are considered enemies of the state?

Harris just wants to deny the obvious no matter what the evidence. He believes in atheism which doesn't require any evidence to believe in. Atheism is really a belief in nothing and about nothing. They are really just throwing away their life and looking forward to death when they think they will disappear from the face of the earth forever... LOL :) Of course, they don't really have any evidence for that belief either.

God Bless..

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