God in His creation.

[Lisa]

The Bible tells us that the Lord is visible even in His creation. I learn concepts and am horrible with exact scripture references. Can you scholars help me out here? I see God in His creation all of the time. Ever notice the incredible varierty of color and beauty in the birds or the flowers. Although similar they are all different. Shape, color, size, behavior each is unique and fascinating in its own way. For me the ultimate in the Lord's creation and complexity is a bug. Yes, I'm weird that way. I like bugs, especially bottom dwelling stream instects (Macrobenthic insects). It is amazing how complex these things are; every leg has numerous joints, their mouths have numerous moving parts, and the immature stage ussually looks radically different from the adult. At the genus level identification may be determined by the size of a "hair", the prescence of a "thumb" on a mouth part, or the location and shape of a hard skeletal plate (sclerite). When even these "simple" things are so complex how can evolution even be considered? A random beneficial mutation? Since when? How/where do you see the Lord in his creation?

[DENNY]

I only mentioned the above to help you develop a critical mind about Darwinian evolution. The article has nothing to say about anything of significance which is really the point I was making. I am trying to help you...

[Lisa]

Ahhh....hmmm.... and to please forgive me if I simply treat the rest of her baffling replies with the derision they deserves and concentrate instead on conversing with people who, unlike Zdenny, have the common human decency to be honest with themselves and other people when it comes to subjects they know little about but would like to learn more. Really ??!!!??!!!

This reminds me of two siblings who just can't settle thier differences. It's pretty obvious that Jim and Zdenny do not agree. It is also obvious that neither is likely to change their opinion. That leaves me with the conclusion that we are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.
Meanwhile I don't see how making jabs at one another's character is at all loving. You are both doing it and at least one of you knows better. Given Jim's admitted early history I think you both know better. Great way to win someone to your point of view, insult them! Much sarcasm is intended here.

So what it God created the earth with a big bang? Could there maybe have been a big creative explosion when God spoke? Could it be that the reason we can't repeat it is because we are not God? What if the method He used to enable life to survive the many difficulties that arose when Eve at that fruit was natural selection?
What if both the good and the evil spirits are using evolution for their purposes? What if the new earth theory is the right one? What if fossils were formed, climates got messed up, continents moved, polarity of rocks changed and volcanes formed because of the massive disaster we called the Noahic flood. Why has it been found that most every culture has a flood story? What if there were multiple floods and only one was recorded? What if none of this is accurate and it really is an old earth? What if both sides and all of the above are correct in part? What if dinosaurs still exist and we call lizards, frogs and the Loch Ness monster?
Does any of this change that fact that last night's sunset was awesome? Every sighted individual regardless of thier beliefs has the ability to admire it.

[DENNY]

Lisa,

Your comment is a great reflection of the certainty of faith in Jesus Christ! Christianity doesn't stand on the latest scientific theory; rather, Christianity rests on the empirically verified resurrection of Jesus Christ! Our life is not shaken by every new thing that a creative mind comes up with in science because our faith rest in a historically confirmed fact.

Jim on the otherhand has built his life on a certain interpretation of science. If something new comes along that challenges those assumptions, it is considered a huge threat and must be stopped at all cost. Science for Christians begins with human observations; however, Science for Jim begins with a worldview called Naturalism.

The debate between Jim and I is really a debate about the freedom of science. Jim due to his life and worldview being tied to science cannot allowed another interpretation of the facts. Christians on the other hand have a great amount of diversity from Young Earth Creationists to Intelligent Design Proponents to Theistic Evolutionists. All three of these views rest on the fact that their is a mind that is responsible for the design that we see. Christians even defend the right of Darwinians to do science because science is not the source of our meaning or even absolute truth.

As you can see, Jim will have to fight to the death any new ideas that challenge his assumptions. Without his assumptions, his worldview collapses. He doesn't believe in freedom for science and is seeking to end the debate in science and forced everyone through indoctrination to accept his views.

I hope you can see that we are really debating the freedom of science with Christians actually doing science and Darwinians who have turned an interpretation of science into a religion.

Thanks for your comments! Your comment reflects the freedom that Christians have to explore the design of our world. Jim will never understand your open mind on these issues because he has closed his mind to everything that disagrees with his worldview.

God Bless...

[DENNY]

Jim,

Your first link argues that self-catalytic molecules are incapable of experiencing Darwinian evolution. I guess we would need to know why you are providing further evidence against Darwinian evolution. Information in the DNA and RNA have to be present first which agrees with ID theory.

The second link says, "Elysia chlorotica, which lives in waters on the east coast of the USA and Canada, is known to steal genes and photosynthesizing organelles called chloroplasts from its favorite intertidal algae species, Vaucheria litorea, but it now seems it has developed an entire chemical pathway to manufacture the green pigment "chlorophyll a" itself."

I noticed the word "seems" which is code for "we don't know, but accept our word as fact." The fact that kleptoplasty exists does not provide proof for Darwininan evolution. All living things use their food sources for energy. The effect of this process is temporary. The fact that they have similar genes does not necessarily mean that the slugs stole the genetic information from the Algae and then added it to their own. This is what is yet to be demonstrated.

I guess you are suggesting that Lenski's disproof of Darwinian evolution can be bypassed by arguing that genes can become chains that are added on by addition. The problem with this view is that genes first have to develop by means of Darwinian evolution in order to add genetic information to form new kinds. Lenski has effectively ended Darwinian evolution as a theory. It may take you a little time to think it through...

Mankind also has 50% of the same genes that a banana has so in your theory mankind evolution was developed by bananas as we stole the genetic information in order to evolve. The problem remains the same because Lenski has demonstrated that Darwinian evolution which first needs to take place does not occur

Jim, you need to understand that Darwinian evolution simply provides a story line. It is a story that has no basis in observational science. It is only a theory. They need a story line to help them tell the story; however, it is just a story.

God Bless...

[Lisa]

Didn't read it yet. Symbiotic relationship? They're all over the place. We call them lichens and liverworts for one example.

[Lisa]

Aren't we nice!
OK so no one alive today has observed Christs death. We do however have historical stories revealing that none of Christ's disciples rejected their faiths and most died horrible deaths. John was exiled to the Island of Patmos (sp?) because he wouldn't change is story. Peter requested to be crucified upside down because he felt himself beneath Jesus whom he viewed as Lord. Seem a mighty committed bunch for a group of liars.
Can find martrys through all the generations who were so convince of Christianity that they would not go back on their faith.

WriterWriter said:

You are an OUTRAGEOUS liar!

Empirically verified??? Are you kidding! This utter, total poppycock! Historically confirmed??

How can you live with yourself as you perpetrate these utter lies on people? THERE IS NO evidence whatsoever this jesus person ever existed and so there cannot be any of a resurrection.

How DARE you presume on people - especially those who are obviously unresearched and misdirected - with such garbage? How DARE you use the word 'fact' in relation to anything you write here? There is utterly NO fact to anything you write.

Every time I come across anything you write, I am heartsick at the lies you tell. How dare you?

[DENNY]

Writer,

You are arguing that a Judge is qualified to judge matters of science? Oh my... I always laugh when I see the double standard. I guess a Carpenter is also qualified to judge matters of science. Your logic hardly seems rational or reasonable.

I appreciate the comment though as I am always honored when a person reads my comments! I love debate and love to talk about the BIG issues. The bottom line is that you are a sinner who is in need of Savior. Your comment clearly demonstrates that you need the love of God in your life. Christ on the other hand said that Christians are able to "love their enemies."

God Bless...

[DENNY]

Once again your logic eludes me... This is perhaps a new meme that Dawkins is putting out to discredit anyone who disagrees with him.

I guess I would need to know how he knew it was a fraud of science without knowing or understanding the depths of science. How can a non-scientist judge on scientific matters?

Your rejection of their being a mind behind nature is simply a blind faith belief on your part. When you are able to think for yourself, please come back and engage in a real discussion..

God Bless..

[DENNY]

Jim,

I guess I will allow the readers to read them for themselves. I don't think you understood the articles myself which resulted in you posting them. You read a headline and decided the headline provided some evidence for Darwinian evolution. If you were being honest though, you would know that Darwinian evolution has never been demonstrated or observed.

All the evidence currently supports Intelligent Design... We just don't have any evidence for Darwinian evolution. The evidence that currently exists is better explained by ID theory. I was hoping you would actually deal with the analysis; however, you decided to attack me again which is merely a debate tactic.

You may not realize this Jim but Christians all realize by your lack of love that you need to know the love of God. I have argued over and over that Darwinians are unable to love because they don't know God. They are locked into a bubble of selfishness that they can't see out of thrown around by their emotions as they deal with life. You have proven to me at least that you need the love of God that is found through Jesus Christ.

Jim, you don't have to remain hopeless...you can respond to the love of God and begin to grow in your knowledge of His love. His love will change your life. I think then you will then understand the power of God which others on the site realize and recognize everyday.

Before I go,

Dear Jesus, we pray for Jim that you may show Him your love. Jim needs to know your love and be transformed from the inside out. Lord, I pray that Jim may be able to see you and your love through your sacrifice on the cross for his sin. I know you love him as much as you love me. In Jesus Name ... Amen.

[Lisa]

All sides can choose to have open minds, if they wish. What those individuals will choose to believe will in the end likely be determined by their world view. Said world view will most likely include beliefs regarding religion or spirtuality.
Frankly nothing in this entire thing is likely to win anyone to Christ. There is very little scripture here.
At best it can only be used to pique someone's curiosity regarding Christianity. We would have to go way off
topic to present the gospel. It can just as easily be used to prompt someone to question Christian views.
Some of the assumptions regarding Jim would be a turn off if I were in his shoes. ZDenny I do not question you sincerity. You have definitely researched this far more than I have. Jim has also been a bit insulting when it suits his purpose.
Writer, you are an interesting sort. Jim's not so nice twin, a devil's advocate looking to see how we respond, or someone violently against Christians. It doesn't really matter which. You are so inflamitary as to be offensive but you want it that way. Then again you want ZDenny to snap at you and stoop to your level so that you can make him/her look bad.
Bible, a historical document? Ever read the Old Testament? It is a Jewish history of the generations preceeding Christ. It is also a record of the messages of the prophetic types of the time. Most of what I mentioned earlier will never be found in the Bible. It comes from other historical sources. As for seperation of church and state; how it was intended to be interpreted and how it is interpreted may be two different things. All of this is indeed way off topic. Be that as it may.
As for rising from the dead and resurection being impossible, there are stories even in our times that will make one wonder. I was not there nor have I thoroughly researched it. Therefore I cannot comment.
There are things in my experience however that can be explained only by the supernatural. I choose to believe it was the One True God. You may call it something else. Your choice.
Oh and writer, I have to wonder just who the demonically influenced are here.
I wonder how the trees those fellows hung on formed. I wonder what the first tree was made from. I'll bet we don't agree on the answer to that at all.

[DENNY]

Writer,

If you think your last post convinced any Christians that you are rational, think again. Christians simply don't use these type of attacks. We delve into the realm of ideas rather than attack others. God's love propels us to reach out and help those who are suffering. Christians are the ones who started the hospitals, involved in almost every charity, feed the hungry, clothe the homeless and provide hope to the world. Darwinians simply run around screaming and yelling about stuff that has never been observed. I believe everyone on this site is most likely praying for you right now. Your tactics only make sense to a fellow atheist who is full of anger.

God Bless...

[DENNY]

Jim

I don't know of any Christians who believe that loving God and your neighbor is 'despicable' I can speak for all Christians because this is right from the mouth of Jesus Himself. The Christians on this site want to show you the love of God that is found in Christ Jesus! They want to love you with the love that they have received from God. The power of God is real and His presence goes with us as we travel through life. The fact that you don't know this love or experience this reality is simply because you have not accepted His Son. You haven't accepted the love of God that can only be known through faith in Jesus Christ.

God Bless...

ZDENNY