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  This one has always gotten my attention. Goes deeper then this. We got hades being hell or it being a grave.We got hell being eternal torture lasting forever or second death (soul being destroyed).

 

 Start off with a few passages that support my view of Heaven after Jesus return.

 

Daniel12: 2

 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.  Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished;never again will they have a part  in anything that happens under the sun.

  Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.  Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.  Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 0 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

 

 

 

The death of Lazarus story is another one.

 Jesus told them Lazarus was asleep and that He was going to awaken him. The disciples responded that sleep was good because it would help him get well. Jesus then plainly told them, "Lazarus is dead". Notice that Jesus stated emphatically that Lazarus was dead, but at the same time He described death as a condition like sleep.

 

Lazarus had not gone to heaven or hell. He had been entombed, where he slept in death until Jesus called him out of the grave.

 

Okay just one more.

John 3:13 

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

Sincerely, I want to know what your opinions are.

 

 

 

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Hi Jame.

You sure did hit upon a great topic for dialogue. I know I gained a lot from it. Yes, you were warm and cordial. I think the Lord was pleased in how we shared with each other. Paul talks about one preached Jesus this way and another that, but praise God, Jesus was preached [shared].

A cordial point, it is not about trusting you or trusting me, Scripture teaches us to have no confidence in the flesh or the natural man. Sometimes, I get my eyes off the Lord and I am my worst enemy. Even if there wasn't an enemy afoot, I would self destruct. I just wanted to say it's not trusting this person or that, we are all in the same boat and all have that same natural man. This was really good, thanks.

I thought about another angle of this. When we are cordially sharing our views on eternity, it is not only about destiny, it is about rewards. For me, I counted on my mom and sisters' prayers to get me home somehow, someway, before I died. such as maybe a deathbed confession. I really counted on it. I believe God through Jesus has done that for an awful lot of people. That is awesome. God is good.

When a person graduates from high school, some go on to college and some don't. Some go past a BA/BS to a MA/MS. It's hard to see the return on the extra investment at the beginning. But when high school grads and college grads enter the work force, they enter into two different structures, two different hierarchies, two different ladders. College grads' ladders are so much higher, they can easily end up being VPs, or CEOs.

Scripture teaches us if we will make a small investment here, it will pay great dividends through out eternity. Sometimes in sharing, it is easy to trivialize in fast forward and I would rather risk trivializing while building friendships, keeping our eyes on our Lord to work this out for us, little here, little there. Anchoring on love one another and build around that.

My twist on physics is context. I love context. In my world I work with pneumatics, electrical conventional controls, DDC and the like. They are formats made up of character base. The context is integration of thought to application or purpose, So we can do the same thing with pneumatics as we can with conventional controls and even limited DDC applications.

Right now we are using formats within formats or languages within languages. Whether we are using an Apple OS or a PC OS, we are using an application that is really 1s and 0s layeres in various formats, reading another format or language-HTML, 1s and 0s talking to and sharing with 1s and 0s, with a spell checker [and I sure need one :-}}] we would have 1s and 0s checking 1s and 0s, turning pixels on and turning pixels off.

Transposing that over to the natural world, we see that all biology is context driven integrated chemistry and all chemistry is integrated physics. Languages operating within languages.

I think it is so awesome within particle accelerators and electron microscopes, that they were able to throw an atom up against the wall and see the quarks that make up protons and neutrons separate, each with properties. It's hard to know how far we can go back without newer viewing and scanning technology.

But we can see that a biological entity is really a context driven integrated environment, layers within layers, languages within languages all the way back to quarks and leptons. Now if we could add acceleration and decceration to that, such as when we have a fever and our pores are open and our skin seems to have a lot more elasticity, our quarks are elongating. I think Tesla and Einstein loved to try to view what was going on at that level.

Sometimes I look through my eyes, I know, [something's wrong with him :-}}] my spirit operating this container. When it leaves will it accelerate in base frequency? Some people have had out of body experiences in an operating room and described all of the events accurately, even the nurse in the corner scratching her nose. If we could view it as a design engineer, we could see the integration of the two levels if we had more comprehension on how things operate and interrelate.

I so agree with you and Juanita, these realms within realms are so fascinating and I like how we each approach it just a little differently so as we share back and forth we fill in each other's missing pieces.

I like to think about our pies. We each have a whole pie. But they are all divided up different. We have large pieces in some areas and slivers in others. I think that's why a team working together can out perform any superstar. They cover each other's weaknesses so only the strengths are visible from the surface.

I just wanted to let you know James how much I appreciate these cordial back and forths and how much I appreciate Juanita for hosting them.

Have a great day!

Mark



James said:

 I wanted to thank everyone for putting up with me. I have learned much,and hope to learn more.

 

 I hope in some small my comming here has helped believers hear to trust atheist.Atheist are not evil.Most atheist want in life the same things as any other.

 

Atheist do not deserve to be the least trusted group in America. In fact NO group should get that lable.

 

 

Juanita,

 I really like  like the double slit experiment. It is not so much that light acts like a wave or a  particle because it is being observed. The potential to act like a wave or a particle is always there even without an observer. Case in point.  If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

 

 

  I find  Quantum Entanglement to be even crazier to think about. Take two eletrons place them on opposite ends of the universe do something to one and the other particle reacts instantly. Either information is traveling much faster then the speed of light or the two particles are still connected. Sense everything was connected at the start of the universe every thing is still touching.Space is just an illusion that make it look like everything is not touching. Now that's some heavy stuff...

 

 Only an hour to go and my work week is done.4 days off.Put in 86 hours in 6 days three-12 hrs shifts two- 16 hrs days and one- 18 hour shift. With a killer head cold to boot. I need some down time.

 

 I understand digital control system (DCS) well. The power plant I am running uses them. I am a control room operator running the scrubbers on a three unit plant watching 24 computer screens. By law
(power plant security act) can't say any more. After 9/11 we have armed gaurds tall fence with razer wire and all. We even had Apache attack Helicopters land here for war games a few times.

 

 I have been doing this for a bit over 4 years and been at the plant for 18 years.I have worked with every thing you were writing about over the years. We got it all at the plant. huge machine, shop training centers even a store that is better stocked then most hardware stores. We supply power to over a million meters in 4 states.

 I make a very comfortable living.When working normal hours I work only 14/ 12hour shifts each  month.

 It's true I find religions very intriging. I was going to a Koran study group and hope to start going again after our spring unit 1 outage.I recommend it, given me a new out look on Muslims. For the better really.

Well I got some paper work to get done to get out of here.

 We will talk more later.  James


Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi Jame.

You sure did hit upon a great topic for dialogue. I know I gained a lot from it. Yes, you were warm and cordial. I think the Lord was pleased in how we shared with each other. Paul talks about one preached Jesus this way and another that, but praise God, Jesus was preached [shared].

A cordial point, it not about trusting you or trusting me, Scripture teaches us to have no confidence in the flesh or the natural man. Sometimes, I get my eyes off the Lord and I am my worst enemy. Even if there wasn't an enemy afoot, I would self destruct. I just wanted to say it's not trusting this person or that, we are all in the same boat and all have that same natural man. This was really good, thanks.

I thought about another angle of this. When we are cordially sharing our views on eternity, it is not only about destiny, it is about rewards. For me, I counted on my mom and sisters' prayers to get me home somehow, someway, before I died. such as maybe a deathbed confession. I really counted on it. I believe God through Jesus has done that for an awful lot of people. That is awesome. God is good.

When a person graduates from high school, some go on to college and some don't. Some go past a BA/BS to a MA/MS. It's hard to see the return on the extra investment at the beginning. But when high school grads and college grads enter the work force, they enter into two different structures, two different hierarchies, two different ladders. College grads' ladders are so much higher, they can easily end up being VPs, or CEOs.

Scripture teaches us if we will make a small investment here, it will pay great dividends through out eternity. Sometimes in sharing, it is easy to trivialize in fast forward and I would rather risk trivializing building friendships, keeping our eyes on our Lord to work this out for us, little here, little there. Anchoring on love one another and build around that.

My twist on physics is context. I love context. In my world I work with pneumatics, electrical conventional controls, DDC and the like. They are formats made up of character base. The context is integration of thought to application or purpose, So we can do the same thing with pneumatics as we can with conventional controls and even limited DDC applications.

Right now we are using formats within formats or languages within languages. Whether we are using an Apple OS or a PC OS, we are using an application that is really 1s and 0s layeres in various formats, reading another format or language-HTML, 1s and 0s talking to and sharing with 1s and 0s, with a spell checker [and I sure need one :-}}] we would have 1s and 0s checking 1s and 0s, turning pixels on and turning pixels off.

Transposing that over to the natural world, we see that all biology is context driven integrated chemistry and all chemistry is integrated physics. Languages operating within languages.

I think it is so awesome within particle accelerators and electron microscopes, that they were able to throw an atom up against the wall and see the quarks that make up protons and neutrons separate, each with properties. It's hard to know how far we can go back without newer viewing and scanning technology.

But we can see that a biological entity is really a context driven integrated environment, layers within layers, languages within languages all the way back to quarks and leptons. Now if we could add acceleration and decceration to that, such as when we have a fever and our pores are open and our skin seems to have a lot more elasticity, our quarks are elongating. I think Tesla and Einstein loved to try to view what was going on at that level.

Sometimes I look through my eyes, I know, [something's wrong with him :-}}] my spirit operating this container. When it leaves will it accelerate in base frequency? Some people have had out of body experiences in an operating room and described all of the events accurately, even the nurse in the corner scratching her nose. If we could view it as a design engineer, we could see the integration of the two levels if we had more comprehension on how things operate and interrelate.

I so agree with you and Juanita, these realms within realms are so fascinating and I like how we each approach it just a little differently so as we share back and forth we fill in each other's missing pieces.

I like to think about our pies. We each have a whole pie. But they are all divided up different. We have large pieces in some areas and slivers in others. I think that's why a team working together can out perform any superstar. They cover each other's weaknesses so only the strengths are visible from the surface.

I just wanted to let you know James how much I appreciate these cordial back and forths and how much I appreciate Juanita for hosting them.

Have a great day!

Mark



James said:

 I wanted to thank everyone for putting up with me. I have learned much,and hope to learn more.

 

 I hope in some small my comming here has helped believers hear to trust atheist.Atheist are not evil.Most atheist want in life the same things as any other.

 

Atheist do not deserve to be the least trusted group in America. In fact NO group should get that lable.

 

 

Juanita,

 I really like  like the double slit experiment. It is not so much that light acts like a wave or a  particle because it is being observed. The potential to act like a wave or a particle is always there even without an observer. Case in point.  If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

 

 

  I find  Quantum Entanglement to be even crazier to think about. Take two eletrons place them on opposite ends of the universe do something to one and the other particle reacts instantly. Either information is traveling much faster then the speed of light or the two particles are still connected. Sense everything was connected at the start of the universe every thing is still touching.Space is just an illusion that make it look like everything is not touching. Now that's some heavy stuff...

 

Yes, quantum entanglement is facinating.   And, to think - it is a related "god-concept" that was laughed about.   People would ask and laugh.   How can God be multiple places at once?    Our universe is separated by space = separated by time as well.     Hmmm...   perhaps because God's dimension is more like quantum than ours. 

 

I want to assure you that I don't think atheists are 'evil'.   :-)   You probably know this- Christians may be outspoken about what they believe; but regarding individuals, we are pretty tolerant because we see all of in the same boat. 

*  People on one hand want right things.

*  People on the other hand do things we should not.

And, of course - that is the watershed separating Christianity from all other belief systems.   Only Christianity admits that we are not perfect and solves that gap in a 'relationship' way.   God himself coming, living and dying.   This fulfills the need for judgement for wrong doing.   That need seems to be hard wired in people; we hate seeing someone get away with crimes without being held accountable.   If you can 'extrovert' from the topic and just mull that over this just from the 'story' point of view.    It is a pretty incredible drama.    Dying for the ones you love.  That is, of course, why it is called the Passion of Christ.   Did you ever see the movie, The Passion of Christ?



James said:

 I wanted to thank everyone for putting up with me. I have learned much,and hope to learn more.

 

 I hope in some small my comming here has helped believers hear to trust atheist.Atheist are not evil.Most atheist want in life the same things as any other.

 

Atheist do not deserve to be the least trusted group in America. In fact NO group should get that lable.

 

 

Juanita,

 I really like  like the double slit experiment. It is not so much that light acts like a wave or a  particle because it is being observed. The potential to act like a wave or a particle is always there even without an observer. Case in point.  If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

 

 

  I find  Quantum Entanglement to be even crazier to think about. Take two eletrons place them on opposite ends of the universe do something to one and the other particle reacts instantly. Either information is traveling much faster then the speed of light or the two particles are still connected. Sense everything was connected at the start of the universe every thing is still touching.Space is just an illusion that make it look like everything is not touching. Now that's some heavy stuff...

 

These topics are so fascinating. I felt sad when it was winding to a close. I almost just wanted to come back and stir up something just to stimulate dialogue. :-}} I have just started reading your writings on Kingdomcryer, they are awesome and they give a really good perspective. New agers have a saying, "Think globally, act locally." Of course we serve a different God, but that thought process brings things into focus. I liked your analogy in a Kingdom within a Kingdom, if we tell someone not yet in the inner Kingdom, "These are the Kingdom rules, got It?" and they answer, "Says who?" I laughed, that was funny.

I heard it from another way. If man has this great big mansion and his kids live with him, but he has a lot of vacant rooms and this person loses their home and ends up in the streets and goes to this man and says, "I am moving in with you." And the man asks why he should let him and the person answers, "Because I am a good person." The man says, "So? You are no relation to me and only my family lives here." I think all the analogies like that bring things into focus.

But I always try to think back when I went to mom's house. Mom and my sisters were saved so they always talked like Jesus was their best buddy. I understood their relationship to Him from afar and was glad they had it. I hoped I would have it one day, but not that day. They accepted me just as I was and where I was at, but they never let me forget, they were praying for me and God was hot on my trail. I was secretly glad that he was. Sometimes I would even turn down Rock Radio for a moment to say, thank you. But I wasn't ready to let go of my old life.

Now I am on the other side and I talk to the Lord all day. I couldn't imagine leaving the house without Him, come home without Him or be home without Him. I see what mom and my sisters saw. I just couldn't see it then. But I remember how many seeds they planted in me and how often they watered them.

So when life beat me in the dirt, I had no doubt whatsoever Who I needed to call on. Now when I work with my coworkers, I pray for them under my breath all day and look for circumstances to say, "I am asking the Lord to help us through this.." They are where I was at and I always want them to know I consider it a privilege to have their friendship and the Lord is going to see us through this so they feel comfortable around me and at the same time know the Lord is my best buddy. So when life beats them in the dirt, they will have no doubt on Who to call on. Sometimes my manager will now tell me something about Joel Osteen, so they're listening, as long as I work on keeping the bridge in place.

I have only read the beginning of Kingdomcryer, but I like the thought process on building the inner Kingdom with outer Kingdom occupants. And I like how the Lord made us and leads us each little different. So people who won't listen to me will be drawn to you or Steve.

I have never been part of a Christian Forum before. I love it! And you know who taught me the most? James! Because I had to reevaluate my purpose and view myself how others see me. "Nobody cares how much I know until they first know how much I care." On twitter I read a quote, "The way to the heart is through the ears." And another that said, "Don't try to guess what others are thinking and don't make them guess what we are thinking, communicate. They don't know I love people with no strings attached, if I come on like a buzz saw. :-)) So I am learning to speak how I like to be spoken to and accept them the way I want to be accepted and know the Lord will work it out for us all.

Juanita, you won't know until we get Home how big your harvest is. This one learns something and shares with that one. Like the pebble and the ripples. Out and out they go; farther and farther they spread. You sure got my vote.

Thanks

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

  Nice to hear. I believe you, but again and again atheist are voted the least trusted group. It wears on a person to be in a group that repeatedly gets labeled like that. I see it in peoples eyes when I tell them I am an atheist.Even people that have know me for years. I have relatives that don't know because my mother does not want me to tell them. For her I don't tell them. I want to, I dislike being dishonest. It's kinda like the
military don't ask don't tell now.

 

 Sorry to say I must disagree with you on Christians knowing everyone is in the same boat.Good Christians okay but the bad ones hide in plan site. Tell Christians what they want to hear to use them for there own gain.

IMO,Christians are wishy washy of sin. Homosexuals are a perfect example of this. Christians repeatly show up at Gay Pride Parade handing out religous anti gay leaflets at these public events. While they are free to do so all it does is stir up hate. Show me where in the 10 commandments it says anything about homosexuals.

 

 Yet most every church of a Christians denomination will hold marriage ceremonies for persons that have been married more then once,twice even  thirds and fourths. WHY? Matthew 19:9 is as clear as can be.

Matthew 19:9

 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Matthew 5:32

 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

 

I don't know where you got the idea that it is only Christians that admit they sin or do things they know are wrong.Every religion I have studied agree, humans do bad things they know they should not. Most blame a evil doer also. Weak in my opion.I blame no one but myself when I do wrong. The same with asking god to forgive. Better to ask the ones wronged for forgivness. Thats just me I guess.

 

I don't see a need for judgement for wrong doing as being hard wired in humans. Humans have been hardwired by evolution to believe in God and tobe musical. Whats wild about that is that no matter what god a person is praying to the same part of the human brain lights up like a christmas tree.

 

 

 

 

 


Juanita said:

Yes, quantum entanglement is facinating.   And, to think - it is a related "god-concept" that was laughed about.   People would ask and laugh.   How can God be multiple places at once?    Our universe is separated by space = separated by time as well.     Hmmm...   perhaps because God's dimension is more like quantum than ours. 

 

I want to assure you that I don't think atheists are 'evil'.   :-)   You probably know this- Christians may be outspoken about what they believe; but regarding individuals, we are pretty tolerant because we see all of in the same boat. 

*  People on one hand want right things.

*  People on the other hand do things we should not.

And, of course - that is the watershed separating Christianity from all other belief systems.   Only Christianity admits that we are not perfect and solves that gap in a 'relationship' way.   God himself coming, living and dying.   This fulfills the need for judgement for wrong doing.   That need seems to be hard wired in people; we hate seeing someone get away with crimes without being held accountable.   If you can 'extrovert' from the topic and just mull that over this just from the 'story' point of view.    It is a pretty incredible drama.    Dying for the ones you love.  That is, of course, why it is called the Passion of Christ.   Did you ever see the movie, The Passion of Christ?



James said:

 I wanted to thank everyone for putting up with me. I have learned much,and hope to learn more.

 

 I hope in some small my comming here has helped believers hear to trust atheist.Atheist are not evil.Most atheist want in life the same things as any other.

 

Atheist do not deserve to be the least trusted group in America. In fact NO group should get that lable.

 

 

Juanita,

 I really like  like the double slit experiment. It is not so much that light acts like a wave or a  particle because it is being observed. The potential to act like a wave or a particle is always there even without an observer. Case in point.  If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

 

 

  I find  Quantum Entanglement to be even crazier to think about. Take two eletrons place them on opposite ends of the universe do something to one and the other particle reacts instantly. Either information is traveling much faster then the speed of light or the two particles are still connected. Sense everything was connected at the start of the universe every thing is still touching.Space is just an illusion that make it look like everything is not touching. Now that's some heavy stuff...

 

Hi James, It's good to hear from you. I was pondering on starting another subject, "Was there a snake in the Garden?" because this one went so well. Now, no one probably changed their views on anything, but it was fun and for me, it gave me a chance in the field to apply "Building an audience makes building a paper significant." So it's not only content, but delivery of content. "Addressing a friend, discussing an issue." Years ago, I read a paper dealing with marriage disagreements, titled, "How to argue with the woman, you still intend on sleeping with." That thought process applies to friendship. How to discuss differences and at the same time acknowledge and maintain the friendship.

A young female college student told me years ago, her view of a Christian was someone with the 10 Commandments in one hand and a big stick in the other, looking for a sinner to whack. I must admit there are times that I have given that impression; not intentionally, but sometimes we lose focus and think the Word needs to be defended, not realizing all it needs is to be unleashed.

I heard a former lesbian who is now a Christian on staff with Focus on the Family, say homosexual people don't need more straight talk, they need Jesus. Nobody will be in Hell for being Homosexual. They will be in Hell by default under jurisdiction of the High Court, if they refuse the New Birth provided by The First Born of Life, that takes us out from under the jurisdiction of the High Court.

Leviticus20:13

If a man also lie with man, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I ran the word abomination through the older digital bible I have and it showed up about 40 or 50 times, mostly in the Old Testament. The Old Testament shows us how impossible it would be to try to live the letter of the law. But it also shows us we can't say Scripture by silence, says it's alright.

But again, God loves homosexuals and every other person under the jurisdiction of the High Court. That love will turn to sadness as He grants their wish to go to a place without His Presence. But a place void of His Presence is also void of His Attributes such as Peace, Love and Joy. Demons are void of these attributes.

The song, "I Can See Clearly Now..." applies to the New Birth. Before, I had heard these arguments many times.

For me, I knew they were true but I just blocked them out.

I watch Christian TV. I look for teachers. Some like preachers. If we ask Billy Graham, how he was so phenominal, he would tell us he joined in with many others' labors. Most were prayed for by someone for years, such as a "Crazy Aunt" and the Lord used him to reap the harvest. But all that had investments will share in the reward.

I worked for a while with a very Logic oriented technician that claimed to be an atheist. Lots of times we would cordially verbally spar. He helped me put my thesis together, Pure logic has no bias receptors, but we are creatures of emotion and we always try to defend choice. Logic will never win someone to Christ. It might plant some seeds, but it's the Lord that creates that "Magic Moment."

I truly enjoy these back and forths, James. Because of you, I have reevaluated my niche. I haven't been called to be a preacher, so I would never be good at it and have no desire to do that. Some are really good at it, but to me it's comparable to art. Some can freehand beautiful murals, I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I am a little dyslexic and I have lost my screwdriver while it was in my left hand.

So I seem to be better at just sharing what the Lord did for me, let you know you have made a friend and pray for you, just like people did for me for a whole lot of years before it took root. It's like, "Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors. It's learning to navigate the rough seas."

Thanks James,

Mark

James said:

  Nice to hear. I believe you, but again and again atheist are voted the least trusted group. It wears on a person to be in a group that repeatedly gets labeled like that. I see it in peoples eyes when I tell them I am an atheist.Even people that have know me for years. I have relatives that don't know because my mother does not want me to tell them. For her I don't tell them. I want to, I dislike being dishonest. It's kinda like the
military don't ask don't tell now.

 

 Sorry to say I must disagree with you on Christians knowing everyone is in the same boat.Good Christians okay but the bad ones hide in plan site. Tell Christians what they want to hear to use them for there own gain.

IMO,Christians are wishy washy of sin. Homosexuals are a perfect example of this. Christians repeatly show up at Gay Pride Parade handing out religous anti gay leaflets at these public events. While they are free to do so all it does is stir up hate. Show me where in the 10 commandments it says anything about homosexuals.

 

 Yet most every church of a Christians denomination will hold marriage ceremonies for persons that have been married more then once,twice even  thirds and fourths. WHY? Matthew 19:9 is as clear as can be.

Matthew 19:9

 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Matthew 5:32

 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

 

I don't know where you got the idea that it is only Christians that admit they sin or do things they know are wrong.Every religion I have studied agree, humans do bad things they know they should not. Most blame a evil doer also. Weak in my opion.I blame no one but myself when I do wrong. The same with asking god to forgive. Better to ask the ones wronged for forgivness. Thats just me I guess.

 

I don't see a need for judgement for wrong doing as being hard wired in humans. Humans have been hardwired by evolution to believe in God and tobe musical. Whats wild about that is that no matter what god a person is praying to the same part of the human brain lights up like a christmas tree.

 

 

 

 

 


Juanita said:

Yes, quantum entanglement is facinating.   And, to think - it is a related "god-concept" that was laughed about.   People would ask and laugh.   How can God be multiple places at once?    Our universe is separated by space = separated by time as well.     Hmmm...   perhaps because God's dimension is more like quantum than ours. 

 

I want to assure you that I don't think atheists are 'evil'.   :-)   You probably know this- Christians may be outspoken about what they believe; but regarding individuals, we are pretty tolerant because we see all of in the same boat. 

*  People on one hand want right things.

*  People on the other hand do things we should not.

And, of course - that is the watershed separating Christianity from all other belief systems.   Only Christianity admits that we are not perfect and solves that gap in a 'relationship' way.   God himself coming, living and dying.   This fulfills the need for judgement for wrong doing.   That need seems to be hard wired in people; we hate seeing someone get away with crimes without being held accountable.   If you can 'extrovert' from the topic and just mull that over this just from the 'story' point of view.    It is a pretty incredible drama.    Dying for the ones you love.  That is, of course, why it is called the Passion of Christ.   Did you ever see the movie, The Passion of Christ?



James said:

 I wanted to thank everyone for putting up with me. I have learned much,and hope to learn more.

 

 I hope in some small my comming here has helped believers hear to trust atheist.Atheist are not evil.Most atheist want in life the same things as any other.

 

Atheist do not deserve to be the least trusted group in America. In fact NO group should get that lable.

 

 

Juanita,

 I really like  like the double slit experiment. It is not so much that light acts like a wave or a  particle because it is being observed. The potential to act like a wave or a particle is always there even without an observer. Case in point.  If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

 

 

  I find  Quantum Entanglement to be even crazier to think about. Take two eletrons place them on opposite ends of the universe do something to one and the other particle reacts instantly. Either information is traveling much faster then the speed of light or the two particles are still connected. Sense everything was connected at the start of the universe every thing is still touching.Space is just an illusion that make it look like everything is not touching. Now that's some heavy stuff...

 

 Hi Mark,

 

 IMO it is danger danger danger to bring any of the rules/laws from Leviticus to say how man should act or not act unless you are willing to follow all the crasy rules/laws from that book. I mean can't ware mixed fibers. All us men would look like we were Muslims Leviticus 19:27  basicaly says,"Don't cut your hair nor shave."You could not have more then one kind of crop planted in your garden if you were to follow that book. 

 Just think of how many cheating men and women we would have to stone to death for breaking Leviticus 20:10..IN the end you would also have to stone me to death for breaking laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy 13:5. That would be very hard as I would keep my AK-47 close at hand at all times.LOL

 

Then the major pain a females monthly cycle comes around and you would have to sleep on the couch at least 7 days a month.

 

 Can't pick and chose what to follow best to forget any laws from the OT.

Hi James :-]] Did we get fired up?

You can't pick and choose from a letter either. If you don't want Christ, then you have to tell the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Good Luck with that one.

James, I am flawed to the core, but I have no fear whatsoever when I leave this life be it tonight or 50 years from now. If we choose not to believe Scripture, it is always our choice. My choices produce either rewards or consequences.

Someone can tell me this Scripture can't work for this reason, but I am just a created being also. It's not me they have to convince.

God at His base is pure logic. "It rains on the just and the unjust." The same rules apply to all. Refuse Christ, under the law. But you've heard these arguments before. ;-]]

I was asking a Christian friend at work to pray with me for you and she asked my original question, "Why is an atheist hanging out at a Christian website?" It's because the Lord is dealing with him. He has no rest. The Lord is hot on his trail. :-}}

The Lord loves you James and you are highly favored before the Most High because of you mom's prayers. Like me, you are going to scream and holler, but when He is done, you will yell "Uncle" or "Jesus, I'm done fighting you. Won't you please come in?" I can't wait.

I'll be here if you have some more hollering to do. :-}}

Mark

James said:

 Hi Mark,

 

 IMO it is danger danger danger to bring any of the rules/laws from Leviticus to say how man should act or not act unless you are willing to follow all the crasy rules/laws from that book. I mean can't ware mixed fibers. All us men would look like we were Muslims Leviticus 19:27  basicaly says,"Don't cut your hair nor shave."You could not have more then one kind of crop planted in your garden if you were to follow that book. 

 Just think of how many cheating men and women we would have to stone to death for breaking Leviticus 20:10..IN the end you would also have to stone me to death for breaking laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy 13:5. That would be very hard as I would keep my AK-47 close at hand at all times.LOL

 

Then the major pain a females monthly cycle comes around and you would have to sleep on the couch at least 7 days a month.

 

 Can't pick and chose what to follow best to forget any laws from the OT.

Hi James and Kingdom Insight,

I am watching a program on TBN, I don't know the name of it. But it is awesome. I think it is http://www.LordSaveUsTheMovie.com

This guy is named Dan something. Dan spent 3.5 years making this movie. One scene shows him telling a man dressed like a gargoyle, that Jesus loves him. He visits a foreign country and talks to a World Vision worker and the woman tells him these people don't anything about the US except these World Vision workers. They think the US is the most compassionate country on the face of the earth.

Dan is making a point. God is judge, Holy Spirit convicts, Jesus is the Redeemer and Christians love. Religion is about rules and regulations. Christianity is about relationship.

God chose Israel as a Theocracy. God has never chosen another nation as a Theocracy. When Jesus came, Israel was looking for a Messiah. Their vision of a Messiah. They thought He was coming in raw physical power, beat Rome in the dirt and rule the nations with an iron hand.

This man that showed up didn't fit the image. He ate with publicans, healed lepers and forgave harlots. The Old Testament tells us why Jesus, the Savior was necessary. It is to redeem us from the curse of the fall. We were sold in bondage to the prince of this world and all that entails. Satan's only rule is "Stay Away From Christ."

We are truly creatures of emotion and we all have buttons. My buttons get pushed and I go into mime. That tears down the bridge and builds the wall. "You stay on your side and I will stay on my side." That's true in any disagreement that forgets to address the person and discuss the issue. We blend the two together and attack the person. It's like you ask a question and a propane flash went off. Your eyebrows are scorched, your hair is standing straight up and your eyes are in a daze.

So there is a big difference between answering a question and primary focus. I am not waiting for a Messiah to arrive in Washington, London or Rome to build a theocracy out of this mess. I am 60. I may very well go to meet Him before this Age winds to a close.

I try to do as much good as I can and generally try to avoid the rough seas. Learning to navigate those rough seas is a class or set of classes all by themselves. I answer and slink away and the Holy Spirit does something to say, "Wait a minute, mister, this class isn't over..." such as out of the clear blue, this guy named Dan shows up on my TV.

I was hearing this teacher talk about some rough waters and he asked a woman friend what he should do and she answered, "Read your own books."

If nothing else, watching how the Holy Spirit deals with His children that have lots of "disciple Peter moments", it shows He is very patient and says, "Let's try this again." And He says that for all of us. He knows just what it takes to get our attention.

If we get it wrong 100 times, we just get to do it 101 times. He doesn't want to constrict us from the outside in. He's changing us from the inside out. Learned constraint becomes self constraint until eventually it becomes self desire. I don't do it because I am not allowed, I don't do it because I don't want to. A lifelong process.

Have a great day!

Mark

 

 

 

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James :-]] Did we get fired up?

You can't pick and choose from a letter either. If you don't want Christ, then you have to tell the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Good Luck with that one.

James, I am flawed to the core, but I have no fear whatsoever when I leave this life be it tonight or 50 years from now. If we choose not to believe Scripture, it is always our choice. My choices produce either rewards or consequences.

Someone can tell me this Scripture can't work for this reason, but I am just a created being also. It's not me they have to convince.

God at His base is pure logic. "It rains on the just and the unjust." The same rules apply to all. Refuse Christ, under the law. But you've heard these arguments before. ;-]]

I was asking a Christian friend at work to pray with me for you and she asked my original question, "Why is an atheist hanging out at a Christian website?" It's because the Lord is dealing with him. He has no rest. The Lord is hot on his trail. :-}}

The Lord loves you James and you are highly favored before the Most High because of you mom's prayers. Like me, you are going to scream and holler, but when He is done, you will yell "Uncle" or "Jesus, I'm done fighting you. Won't you please come in?" I can't wait.

I'll be here if you have some more hollering to do. :-}}

Mark

James said:

 Hi Mark,

 

 IMO it is danger danger danger to bring any of the rules/laws from Leviticus to say how man should act or not act unless you are willing to follow all the crasy rules/laws from that book. I mean can't ware mixed fibers. All us men would look like we were Muslims Leviticus 19:27  basicaly says,"Don't cut your hair nor shave."You could not have more then one kind of crop planted in your garden if you were to follow that book. 

 Just think of how many cheating men and women we would have to stone to death for breaking Leviticus 20:10..IN the end you would also have to stone me to death for breaking laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy 13:5. That would be very hard as I would keep my AK-47 close at hand at all times.LOL

 

Then the major pain a females monthly cycle comes around and you would have to sleep on the couch at least 7 days a month.

 

 Can't pick and chose what to follow best to forget any laws from the OT.

  LOL fired up Okay sure that works. The cherry picking of the bible is a big part of the reason that I don't believe in any perfect beings,and see the bible as soully a work of man to control the actions of other men.

 

 

DIDo to you on telingl the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Tell them how you looked down on any who were different then you believed different then you. Then tell them you allowed others that followed your faith some leway on other rules/laws because they supported your views in return. Good Luck with that one too.

 No it is you. Why do christian churches perform marriage serves to adulterer even repeat adulters but not homosexuals?

 

 Like I have said I have no fear to be judged by my actions. I am proud of showing people there is a better way then what the bible says.

 

Don't get me wrong there is much great wisdom in the bible but there is also much backward old world beliefs and outdated customs hiding in its pages.

 

If you can't see that, it is not I that is lost.
Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James :-]] Did we get fired up?

You can't pick and choose from a letter either. If you don't want Christ, then you have to tell the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Good Luck with that one.

James, I am flawed to the core, but I have no fear whatsoever when I leave this life be it tonight or 50 years from now. If we choose not to believe Scripture, it is always our choice. My choices produce either rewards or consequences.

Someone can tell me this Scripture can't work for this reason, but I am just a created being also. It's not me they have to convince.

God at His base is pure logic. "It rains on the just and the unjust." The same rules apply to all. Refuse Christ, under the law. But you've heard these arguments before. ;-]]

I was asking a Christian friend at work to pray with me for you and she asked my original question, "Why is an atheist hanging out at a Christian website?" It's because the Lord is dealing with him. He has no rest. The Lord is hot on his trail. :-}}

The Lord loves you James and you are highly favored before the Most High because of you mom's prayers. Like me, you are going to scream and holler, but when He is done, you will yell "Uncle" or "Jesus, I'm done fighting you. Won't you please come in?" I can't wait.

I'll be here if you have some more hollering to do. :-}}

Mark

James said:

 Hi Mark,

 

 IMO it is danger danger danger to bring any of the rules/laws from Leviticus to say how man should act or not act unless you are willing to follow all the crasy rules/laws from that book. I mean can't ware mixed fibers. All us men would look like we were Muslims Leviticus 19:27  basicaly says,"Don't cut your hair nor shave."You could not have more then one kind of crop planted in your garden if you were to follow that book. 

 Just think of how many cheating men and women we would have to stone to death for breaking Leviticus 20:10..IN the end you would also have to stone me to death for breaking laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy 13:5. That would be very hard as I would keep my AK-47 close at hand at all times.LOL

 

Then the major pain a females monthly cycle comes around and you would have to sleep on the couch at least 7 days a month.

 

 Can't pick and chose what to follow best to forget any laws from the OT.

Hi James.

It sounds like you are preparing your speech, just in case you need it. You won't. Friend, when you read a response, you ignore everything, but what you think you can build a case from. It's called self-justification.

All backbiting, ridicule, sarcasm, and the like are rooted in a attempt at self-justification. Satan is called the Adversary and attempts to use self-justification to explain away the need for Christ. Some demon is screaming because he knows he is about to lose you.

The Christian Message is John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. But there is a foundation on why that was necessary.

A girl driving down a street, runs a red light. A policeman pulls her over, She says, "You are not a part of my reality, I reject your views of my reality." Guess what? The rubber is about to meet the road.

Our rubber meets the road at death. While there is life, there is hope. But there is so much more. What we, all of us, sow, we reap. We cause an awful lot of our own troubles.

When our VP of Operations, first took over, she brought in a Life Coach to help us view life through the Big Picture. At work and in life, what is my purpose, what do I want to accomplish and such. What produces joy of purpose? Gratitude. I not only work for people, I work with people. If I keep the big picture in mind, I keep little things little. If I lose focus, life becomes constant gloat or lament, "Look at what I did to them or what they did to me." No team spirit, no team support, life sucks and Sh_t, do I have to do this again?" We choose misery or joy before we leave home. Some woman was telling me she heard this person just dragging everybody down and someone replied, "An asshole is your guru." A little brass, but it brings things into focus.

There are lots of people on campus, I love to visit as I run my Work Orders. They brighten my day and put a little more spring in my step. And there are a few that I avoid as much as possible. I just get in and do my work and be polite as possible and try not to take anything with me. Who did what, they should have done this. The guy on the corner with the sign would love to have what we perceive as problems. No gratitude. The air is permeated with negativity.

The Life Coach was secular, so she wasn't trying to validate Scripture, but she showed us an experiment. She had this guy sit in a chair and she stood behind him. She had him raise his right arm straight out. Then she told us when she raised one finger to think negatively toward him and when she raised two fingers to think positive toward him. She mixed it up several times. Positive, she had a hard time pushing his arm down. Negative, his arm went down relatively easy. One time, he almost fell out of the chair. Scripture is replete with "The Power of the Tongue."

So James, when you say people don't like atheists. They are not responding to atheists, they are responding to you. Just like I can say people avoid Christians, if they are avoiding me. What we bring to the table, will determine what we get from the table; a positive cordial response or a negative rude one.

I heard a conversation at work where this guy was being negative toward our employer and this other person made a joke of it. Later I heard the joke, but not what initiated the joke. I learned years ago, to put on my blinders, put in my ear plugs and zip my lip with gossip. Defining a friend is always about us and not about 'them'. "Your name is safe in my mouth." When I was asking my friend for prayer support, I had only the hightest praise for you. You made our last series of conversations, thought provoking, cordial and a joy to be a part of.

We each have a gift or gifts. Up to this point mine seemed to be prayer and the gift of giving. I am just learning how to navigate rough seas.

Years ago, when I refurbished old computers for needy families, I was helping a student get her modem working, [so it was a while back], when I changed the IRQ and we could connect with the modem, I was excited and shouted, "We did it!" She said, "No, we didn't do it, it was all you." I grabbed that for myself. I tell the Lord everyday, "It was all You." Yes we are a dynamo, but the difference between this and that is always the Lord.

I hope I am helping, James. I don't condemn you or anyone else. I enjoyed our cordial back and forths far more than our negative ones.

I do hope you have a good day.

Mark



James said:

  LOL fired up Okay sure that works. The cherry picking of the bible is a big part of the reason that I don't believe in any perfect beings,and see the bible as soully a work of man to control the actions of other men.

 

 

DIDo to you on telingl the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Tell them how you looked down on any who were different then you believed different then you. Then tell them you allowed others that followed your faith some leway on other rules/laws because they supported your views in return. Good Luck with that one too.

 No it is you. Why do christian churches perform marriage serves to adulterer even repeat adulters but not homosexuals?

 

 Like I have said I have no fear to be judged by my actions. I am proud of showing people there is a better way then what the bible says.

 

Don't get me wrong there is much great wisdom in the bible but there is also much backward old world beliefs and outdated customs hiding in its pages.

 

If you can't see that, it is not I that is lost.
Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James :-]] Did we get fired up?

You can't pick and choose from a letter either. If you don't want Christ, then you have to tell the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Good Luck with that one.

James, I am flawed to the core, but I have no fear whatsoever when I leave this life be it tonight or 50 years from now. If we choose not to believe Scripture, it is always our choice. My choices produce either rewards or consequences.

Someone can tell me this Scripture can't work for this reason, but I am just a created being also. It's not me they have to convince.

God at His base is pure logic. "It rains on the just and the unjust." The same rules apply to all. Refuse Christ, under the law. But you've heard these arguments before. ;-]]

I was asking a Christian friend at work to pray with me for you and she asked my original question, "Why is an atheist hanging out at a Christian website?" It's because the Lord is dealing with him. He has no rest. The Lord is hot on his trail. :-}}

The Lord loves you James and you are highly favored before the Most High because of you mom's prayers. Like me, you are going to scream and holler, but when He is done, you will yell "Uncle" or "Jesus, I'm done fighting you. Won't you please come in?" I can't wait.

I'll be here if you have some more hollering to do. :-}}

Mark

James said:

 Hi Mark,

 

 IMO it is danger danger danger to bring any of the rules/laws from Leviticus to say how man should act or not act unless you are willing to follow all the crasy rules/laws from that book. I mean can't ware mixed fibers. All us men would look like we were Muslims Leviticus 19:27  basicaly says,"Don't cut your hair nor shave."You could not have more then one kind of crop planted in your garden if you were to follow that book. 

 Just think of how many cheating men and women we would have to stone to death for breaking Leviticus 20:10..IN the end you would also have to stone me to death for breaking laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy 13:5. That would be very hard as I would keep my AK-47 close at hand at all times.LOL

 

Then the major pain a females monthly cycle comes around and you would have to sleep on the couch at least 7 days a month.

 

 Can't pick and chose what to follow best to forget any laws from the OT.

     There are many excuses for unbelief.Believing in God's provision in Jesus Christ is a struggle to the very end of life.  Jesus said that it was a full time job(John 6 vs 29).  I might be cherry picking scriptures though, heaven forbid that I don't spend every waking hour in pursuit of money.  I love the liberty that I have in Christ and will not give it up for anyone.  In Galatians Paul talks about people spying on believers so that they could steal their freedom.  Atheism is really quite simple, we don't have a father.  This is why one of the manifestations of God is as a Father.  The world's system will always attack the father as spiritual head.  The Protestant reformers paid a lot of lip service to the priesthood of all believers, but their actions prove that they really did not believe this, for they instituted professionals to teach young children, instead of eqiping the saints to do the work of the ministry.  There have been books written about militant atheists, and without exception they were fatherless.  With most of us it isn't quite that traumatic, we have had fathers who supplied for are material needs, but they were not priests who provided spiritual nourishment and instruction in God's Word.  For the most part it was because of the Devil and the world's system who stole this abilty to perform this God ordained function.  This is why the last scripture in the OT is "God will turn the hearts of the children to their fathers and the fathers to their children or else I will strike the land with a curse".  I could be cherry picking though. 

James said:

  LOL fired up Okay sure that works. The cherry picking of the bible is a big part of the reason that I don't believe in any perfect beings,and see the bible as soully a work of man to control the actions of other men.

 

 

DIDo to you on telingl the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Tell them how you looked down on any who were different then you believed different then you. Then tell them you allowed others that followed your faith some leway on other rules/laws because they supported your views in return. Good Luck with that one too.

 No it is you. Why do christian churches perform marriage serves to adulterer even repeat adulters but not homosexuals?

 

 Like I have said I have no fear to be judged by my actions. I am proud of showing people there is a better way then what the bible says.

 

Don't get me wrong there is much great wisdom in the bible but there is also much backward old world beliefs and outdated customs hiding in its pages.

 

If you can't see that, it is not I that is lost.
Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James :-]] Did we get fired up?

You can't pick and choose from a letter either. If you don't want Christ, then you have to tell the High Court, you were perfect under the law. Good Luck with that one.

James, I am flawed to the core, but I have no fear whatsoever when I leave this life be it tonight or 50 years from now. If we choose not to believe Scripture, it is always our choice. My choices produce either rewards or consequences.

Someone can tell me this Scripture can't work for this reason, but I am just a created being also. It's not me they have to convince.

God at His base is pure logic. "It rains on the just and the unjust." The same rules apply to all. Refuse Christ, under the law. But you've heard these arguments before. ;-]]

I was asking a Christian friend at work to pray with me for you and she asked my original question, "Why is an atheist hanging out at a Christian website?" It's because the Lord is dealing with him. He has no rest. The Lord is hot on his trail. :-}}

The Lord loves you James and you are highly favored before the Most High because of you mom's prayers. Like me, you are going to scream and holler, but when He is done, you will yell "Uncle" or "Jesus, I'm done fighting you. Won't you please come in?" I can't wait.

I'll be here if you have some more hollering to do. :-}}

Mark

James said:

 Hi Mark,

 

 IMO it is danger danger danger to bring any of the rules/laws from Leviticus to say how man should act or not act unless you are willing to follow all the crasy rules/laws from that book. I mean can't ware mixed fibers. All us men would look like we were Muslims Leviticus 19:27  basicaly says,"Don't cut your hair nor shave."You could not have more then one kind of crop planted in your garden if you were to follow that book. 

 Just think of how many cheating men and women we would have to stone to death for breaking Leviticus 20:10..IN the end you would also have to stone me to death for breaking laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy 13:5. That would be very hard as I would keep my AK-47 close at hand at all times.LOL

 

Then the major pain a females monthly cycle comes around and you would have to sleep on the couch at least 7 days a month.

 

 Can't pick and chose what to follow best to forget any laws from the OT.

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