KingdomInsight

Creating a Learning Network for Kingdom Builders!

 America is as much an economic phenomenon as it is a nation. It is built on a system whose driving force is the profit motive. Our economy blatantly rewards greed. In classic economic theory greed is good. A person who is motivated by greed will create, as unintended byproducts, benefits for everyone, such as employment and the development of new goods and services. Let the rich get richer, the saying goes, and the benefits will "trickle down" to the rest of us.

 Under a pure capitalistic system the government keeps hands off and allows the market to decide how the money flows. The problem is, as we have found in this era of deregulation, the money flows to the top.

Tampering with the market system to redistribute the wealth or assure that the poor are protected is labeled "socialism."

By these standards Jesus was a socialist.

 Jesus spoke remarkably often about wealth and poverty. To the poor he said, "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God," (Luke's version). To the rich he said, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth," and "go, sell what you have, and give to the poor." When the rich turned away from him because they couldn't follow his command he observed, "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

For Jesus, helping the poor and the outcast is not optional: it is the essence of what it means to love God. In the parable of the last judgement he welcomes the righteous into heaven saying, "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." When the righteous answered that they didn't recall doing any of these things, he said, "as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

We are to "forgive our debtors" and "give to every one who begs from you." But don't handouts contribute to moral decay? Jesus was more concerned about the moral decay in those who are so attached to their wealth that they would hoard it for themselves. In our better moments most of us recognize that giving does not corrupt. We sacrifice to give good things to our children and do our best to provide them with years of carefree existence as they grow up. We do this to give them a sense of security and a foundation for growth. People who have been devastated by misfortune, or for whatever reason are down and out, may need even more help because they may not have what it takes to recover on their own.

 What's wrong with trickle-down economics? Every time I hear that phrase I think of the story Jesus told about a rich man and the beggar Lazarus "who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table." Needless to say, the story ends with Lazarus going to a better place than the rich man. Trickle down theory is about crumbs. Those who say we should settle for crumbs would make us a nation of beggars.

Greed may be a driving force for the economy, but Jesus saw it is as destructive to community. Greed may leave a few crumbs behind for the poor, and it may do some unintended good, but it destroys compassion. Compassion is in short supply in our society today where workers are being downsized in the name of efficiency, prisons are being expanded to insulate society from its underclasses, and the middle class is abandoned by the rich to fight it out with the poor for the table scraps.

Jesus' response to economic inequality is very direct: we are to share the wealth. I once heard a talk about world hunger. The point was that we produce far more food than is needed to feed everyone on earth. The problem is not lack of supply; it is maldistribution. Many people are simply too poor to buy the food they need. This talk gave me a new perspective on the story of the feeding of the 5000. Jesus was out in the desert followed by a huge crowd. The disciples were concerned that it was getting late in the day and they didn't have enough food to feed the crowd. My suspicion is that Jesus sensed there was plenty of food in the crowd, but whereas some had plenty, others had nothing. Sensing an opportunity to make a point, he instructed his disciples to take their five loaves and two fish and distribute them freely to the crowd. By the sheer audaciousness of this act he induced those with food to join him in giving it away. The result is everyone was fed that day with twelve baskets left over. If Jesus simply did a magic trick and made food appear, what's the point? Whoopee! He's divine. He's not like us. But if, by his act of giving away all he had in the face of the overwhelming crowd, he demonstrated the power of a sharing community, he achieved a real miracle! Sharing is a lesson we especially need to learn today.

 

Thank you for your time. James

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There are two types of differences in our faith, one is doctrinal, one is within the bounds of reasonable interpretation.  If one church believes their women should be covered and another that women can lead services, these are not doctrinal differences.  If one church believes that Christ has called us to sit and pray for a better world, then that church is doctrinally incorrect, and can't really be called a Christ follower church. 

One of the key standards of kingdom living is something we call 'unity in diversity'- this is a concept that we are all united under one God, one baptism, two commandments.  Outside of the core doctrinal teachings of Christ and the apostles, there is much room for diversity.  As a matter of fact, the Lord loves diversity.  When the people of Babel began to build towards heaven, God scattered them and set their tongues to many languages. 

 

There is a second key standard of kingdom living called 'popular sovereignty'- this also comes into play- outside of the core doctrinal issues of our faith, that Christ is the Messiah, that he died for our sins, that he rose from the dead, that he taught the great commandment and the great commission, etc, there is much room for peoples to make their own personal decisions about how they live Christ and how they worship Christ.

 

This argument you have made here does not in any way shape or form address the erroneous assumption you have made about my faith that we are a people who pray for the world to be a better place.  Jesus said, I do not pray for this world, I pray for these men.  He also washed the feet of the disciples and demonstrated his Love in action, as a servant, and called us to do the same thing.

 

You have made the statement that you put your Faith in man.  Perhaps you do not know what the word faith fully entails. 

Here are the webster definitions:

noun

1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

 

Of these eight, what kind of faith are you ascribing to man and how did you come to form this faith in so inconsistent a species as humankind?  Is it based in your atheist, humanist logic, or did you have to make a leap of...er..faith to obtain such a noble view of mankind?

 

How do you serve your community and what is the motivation behind serving your community?  How are you making the world a better place?  We as Christians are not concerned for this world, only the people we can connect to, one relationship at a time, one emerging family at a time.

Mark,

 

You have hit on one of the key ways we as Christians witness our faith to others.  For you, James, if you have not experienced Christ in your life, if you have not had the privilege of seeing him do things through you that go far beyond your human skill and character, then you cannot know Christ's love.  If you cannot know his love, you cannot touch the Faith that moves in a Christ follower and sweetens everything he touches, sees, eats, smells.  As I write this, I sit here with a bad sinus headache that has waxed and waned for almost a week now.  Without the Lord, without the power of the Holy Spirit, I would be miserable and depressed by now, maybe even angry at God, but for Christ followers, even suffering is an opportunity, an opportunity to serve HIM through your unwavering faith, through not allowing yourself to be caught up in the pain and discomfort of suffering.  Any nonbelievers who would see me and knew the level of pain I was in, yet still able to take care of my family, be cheerful and loving to my wife and daughter, would ask me how.  I would say, with the Love of Christ, and I would be a witness to Christ's reality in the life I led in service to Him.

 

James, whatever you saw in your Christian experience must have shown you an inept, powerless God who didnt exist in the real, daily lives of others, whose words are used to chastise and oppress, rather than elevate and redeem.  This is NOT the gospel Christ taught.  I implore you James to read the gospels like you are reading a blog.  Make the words real.  Take the religion out of it.   Christ did not write inside of churches, for the church world, a world he never described or even conceived.  This church world can sometimes limit Christ to praise and worship, an offering, a few prayers, and a sermon.  I call this type of church the 'see you next week' family of Christ.  HE wants to be a vital part of your total life, to have an impact on everything you do, not just how you worship on Sunday, and He can be if you open your heart to his love, if you then find Faith in Him as the one true way that redeemed your soul with his blood, and you then live out his teachings in your daily life, allowing Christ to do great things through you that will astonish you and let you see daily the proof of the real Christ in service to Him.

 

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,

I like Paul's Straw Man analogy. I grew up watching the love of Christ in action. From a local Methodist Church to a group of Christians at a local fire department that made a family of 14 kids' life far more bearable and enjoyable. If we took a poll of missions like World Vision on how many were Christians and how many were atheists that were supporting it, the straw man would come to the surface.

Juanita puts in a lot of work, time and money to maintain this Christian Forum. Faith in action. She prays over our bickering [I feel her prayers working on me, :-))] A wonderful example of faith in action and love of Christ in action.

God doesn't miss a thing. He won't ask us what we did, He already knows. And we cannot outgive God. I like the way William Tyndale put it in God's Outlaw, "We can tell a tree by its fruit. The fruit doesn't make the tree, the tree makes the fruit."

But having said that James, I spent 42 years producing rotten fruit. I am still flawed to the core. The Lord knew my date and He knows yours.

But see how much good you are doing us? Thank you. I mean that. You make us think, share and learn from each other.

Juanita was right. An atheist at a Christian Website makes Christians grow. Thanks James.

Your friend,

Mark

 

Paul, I will be praying with you and for you about that headache...

Father, I plead the Blood of Jesus over Paul's headache. And Jesus told us  " Again I say unto you, That if {two of you} shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

So we ask you Father, to make it go away and not to return. We give you the praise, the honor and the glory, for it is in Jesus Name, that we pray. Amen

Amen to that
If you have had a sinus headache that long ya might have a  sinus infection. Smart thing to do would be to get tested for a an infection. Untreated complications of sinusitis can occur that may lead to severe medical problems and possibly death.

Freedomist said:

Mark,

 

You have hit on one of the key ways we as Christians witness our faith to others.  For you, James, if you have not experienced Christ in your life, if you have not had the privilege of seeing him do things through you that go far beyond your human skill and character, then you cannot know Christ's love.  If you cannot know his love, you cannot touch the Faith that moves in a Christ follower and sweetens everything he touches, sees, eats, smells.  As I write this, I sit here with a bad sinus headache that has waxed and waned for almost a week now.  Without the Lord, without the power of the Holy Spirit, I would be miserable and depressed by now, maybe even angry at God, but for Christ followers, even suffering is an opportunity, an opportunity to serve HIM through your unwavering faith, through not allowing yourself to be caught up in the pain and discomfort of suffering.  Any nonbelievers who would see me and knew the level of pain I was in, yet still able to take care of my family, be cheerful and loving to my wife and daughter, would ask me how.  I would say, with the Love of Christ, and I would be a witness to Christ's reality in the life I led in service to Him.

 

James, whatever you saw in your Christian experience must have shown you an inept, powerless God who didnt exist in the real, daily lives of others, whose words are used to chastise and oppress, rather than elevate and redeem.  This is NOT the gospel Christ taught.  I implore you James to read the gospels like you are reading a blog.  Make the words real.  Take the religion out of it.   Christ did not write inside of churches, for the church world, a world he never described or even conceived.  This church world can sometimes limit Christ to praise and worship, an offering, a few prayers, and a sermon.  I call this type of church the 'see you next week' family of Christ.  HE wants to be a vital part of your total life, to have an impact on everything you do, not just how you worship on Sunday, and He can be if you open your heart to his love, if you then find Faith in Him as the one true way that redeemed your soul with his blood, and you then live out his teachings in your daily life, allowing Christ to do great things through you that will astonish you and let you see daily the proof of the real Christ in service to Him.

 

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,

I like Paul's Straw Man analogy. I grew up watching the love of Christ in action. From a local Methodist Church to a group of Christians at a local fire department that made a family of 14 kids' life far more bearable and enjoyable. If we took a poll of missions like World Vision on how many were Christians and how many were atheists that were supporting it, the straw man would come to the surface.

Juanita puts in a lot of work, time and money to maintain this Christian Forum. Faith in action. She prays over our bickering [I feel her prayers working on me, :-))] A wonderful example of faith in action and love of Christ in action.

God doesn't miss a thing. He won't ask us what we did, He already knows. And we cannot outgive God. I like the way William Tyndale put it in God's Outlaw, "We can tell a tree by its fruit. The fruit doesn't make the tree, the tree makes the fruit."

But having said that James, I spent 42 years producing rotten fruit. I am still flawed to the core. The Lord knew my date and He knows yours.

But see how much good you are doing us? Thank you. I mean that. You make us think, share and learn from each other.

Juanita was right. An atheist at a Christian Website makes Christians grow. Thanks James.

Your friend,

Mark

 

James!

I told FREEDOMIST the SAME THING.  :-)

 

Second...

Thought you'd like to see this article on guillotining the rich.  

 

A liberal group had a “Make Them Pay Rally” today on the steps of the Arkansas state capitol meant to counter the anti-tax Tea Party protest from April 15.  Around 30 people gathered hold signs that called for taxing the rich and eliminating what they felt are unfair special tax rules for corporations.

However, the rhetoric soon turned violent, much more so than any Tea Party rally I have ever attended.

“While whistling on their way to their offshore banks, (corporations) have destroyed more Americans than Al Qaeda,” said former state representative and 2010 Green Party Gubernatorial nominee Jim Lendall. “Corporations have become the fat aristocracy that dictates our government.”

“The French, inspired by our American Revolution, knew how to deal with the wealthy arrogant aristocrats. The French people built guillotines. Maybe we can park a guillotine in front of every chamber of commerce, corporate headquarters, bank, investment house, and Republican Party headquarters to remind them that democracy is about people not profits. We need to tell them in one clear voice, ‘no more greed’.”

Democratic State Rep. Jim Nickels from Sherwood, who spoke earlier at the rally was on hand, but declined to comment about Lindall’s statement although he also declined to renounce it when asked specifically about it

http://tolbertreport.com/2011/04/18/liberal-make-them-pay-group-cal...

James said:

If you have had a sinus headache that long ya might have a  sinus infection. Smart thing to do would be to get tested for a an infection. Untreated complications of sinusitis can occur that may lead to severe medical problems and possibly death.

Freedomist said:

Mark,

 

You have hit on one of the key ways we as Christians witness our faith to others.  For you, James, if you have not experienced Christ in your life, if you have not had the privilege of seeing him do things through you that go far beyond your human skill and character, then you cannot know Christ's love.  If you cannot know his love, you cannot touch the Faith that moves in a Christ follower and sweetens everything he touches, sees, eats, smells.  As I write this, I sit here with a bad sinus headache that has waxed and waned for almost a week now.  Without the Lord, without the power of the Holy Spirit, I would be miserable and depressed by now, maybe even angry at God, but for Christ followers, even suffering is an opportunity, an opportunity to serve HIM through your unwavering faith, through not allowing yourself to be caught up in the pain and discomfort of suffering.  Any nonbelievers who would see me and knew the level of pain I was in, yet still able to take care of my family, be cheerful and loving to my wife and daughter, would ask me how.  I would say, with the Love of Christ, and I would be a witness to Christ's reality in the life I led in service to Him.

 

James, whatever you saw in your Christian experience must have shown you an inept, powerless God who didnt exist in the real, daily lives of others, whose words are used to chastise and oppress, rather than elevate and redeem.  This is NOT the gospel Christ taught.  I implore you James to read the gospels like you are reading a blog.  Make the words real.  Take the religion out of it.   Christ did not write inside of churches, for the church world, a world he never described or even conceived.  This church world can sometimes limit Christ to praise and worship, an offering, a few prayers, and a sermon.  I call this type of church the 'see you next week' family of Christ.  HE wants to be a vital part of your total life, to have an impact on everything you do, not just how you worship on Sunday, and He can be if you open your heart to his love, if you then find Faith in Him as the one true way that redeemed your soul with his blood, and you then live out his teachings in your daily life, allowing Christ to do great things through you that will astonish you and let you see daily the proof of the real Christ in service to Him.

 

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,

I like Paul's Straw Man analogy. I grew up watching the love of Christ in action. From a local Methodist Church to a group of Christians at a local fire department that made a family of 14 kids' life far more bearable and enjoyable. If we took a poll of missions like World Vision on how many were Christians and how many were atheists that were supporting it, the straw man would come to the surface.

Juanita puts in a lot of work, time and money to maintain this Christian Forum. Faith in action. She prays over our bickering [I feel her prayers working on me, :-))] A wonderful example of faith in action and love of Christ in action.

God doesn't miss a thing. He won't ask us what we did, He already knows. And we cannot outgive God. I like the way William Tyndale put it in God's Outlaw, "We can tell a tree by its fruit. The fruit doesn't make the tree, the tree makes the fruit."

But having said that James, I spent 42 years producing rotten fruit. I am still flawed to the core. The Lord knew my date and He knows yours.

But see how much good you are doing us? Thank you. I mean that. You make us think, share and learn from each other.

Juanita was right. An atheist at a Christian Website makes Christians grow. Thanks James.

Your friend,

Mark

 

 These pages get so long and confusing when one replies to a post. I am going this route.

 

Freedomist, I liked your posting of the full definition of "faith" 

 Ya know that faith thing works both ways.  Does that mean you have faith in all the other Gods and Goodnesses that are or were believed in for thousands of years?  You can no more call these Gods into question then I can your.

To use a quote from Professor Richard Dawkins: We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanityhas ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. 

 

 

That "unity in diversity" is a nice thing. Comes in handy at election time I bet. As you may or may not know I have been doing this debate thing for years in all kinds of groups. This  unity in diversity don't hold up so well in many of them. Common in fact for Baptist to call Catholic all kinds of nasty thing well till they start on the Mormons and Jehovah Witness that is. Even good old Mark calls them religious cults. The Mormons won a few over with the millions they spent in California's gay marriage vote for awhile anyway.

 With Evolution more then a few of the major  Christian denominations fully supporting it. Catholic do, Methodist do, even same Baptist Churches are okay with evolution. That is good. 

Texas is on fire.8000 fires this year.SO

 NOW, THEREFORE, I, RICK PERRY, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.

 What’s next, dancing?  Oh, hell no.  Only the red man believes in rain dances.  Silly, ignorant red man!

 

Rick Perry is a staunch denier of climate change.

 While the scientific organizations responsible for analyzing the problem attribute the Texas droughts to climate change, the governor of the state denies its existence and instead urges prayer as a rational response to a crisis.  And let’s be clear here, the science isn’t “out” on whether or not manmade climate change is occurring.  It just isn’t.  You can’t depend on the virtues of science to get you through each day, as all of us do, and then just choose not to listen to the scientists when it doesn’t fit your political or religious stance.

 

Wow. What a fresh perspective! However, if we mandate that people who are NOT believers in Christ give to the poor, many will see that as something different than being altruistic, which by its nature, is giving with a benevolent spirit. If it becomes law, it may kill the spirit of the wealthy individual who may not have a compassionate heart. His attitude may be, "I've worked hard for my money. Why should so much of it go to people who only want a hand-out and do not want to work?" What would be his alternative? Perhaps move to a country where he can keep his wealth.Consider California: Many businesses have moved out of the state because they were being taxed too high. Other states have benefitted; California is going bankrupt.

 

Jesus words were spoken to both believers and non-believers. Each person accepted what He had to say differently according to their attitudes about money and their devotion to God. As Christians, we should gladly bring our tithes "into the storehouse" and then look for ways to bless others, including sharing our wealth with those less fortunate. But to demand this of the non-believer? Many non-believers do indeed have a compassionate heart, but they would share with others whether it was mandated or not. Historically, socialist societies have failed. If the U.S. becomes a socialistic nation, would we succeed where others have failed?

 

Something to ponder. Ginger

Hi folks,

These political/social arguments are interesting and anyone reading these forums know I am Scripture oriented so I pretty much agree with Ginger, Juanita, Paul and bicker with James.

But for me and I think for all Christians, that we don't sometimes bring out is there are real rewards and consequences of choice.  I am just passing through here. I anchored my eternity question. I now work on being pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

Scripture teaches us love one another, bear one another's burdens, pray for one another, do good to those who spitefully use you and etc. That makes us the best citizens a country or populace could ask for as we work on that. We don't always get it right, but that is what we are working on.

I agree with Paul, James' Straw Man arguments are a ruse. Now I understand James as I spent a good portion of my life in alcohol and an alcohol focus is the most selfish focus one can have. I didn't condemn everybody and everything like James does, but my focus, my time and my money were directed at pary central and what I thought it was providing me. I was very selfish. Cordial, but selfish. I couldn't share with you, the money I had set aside for Friday night.

Jesus is teaching me through His Word to think different, to act different and to be different. I go to work with a sense of gratitude and a cheerful disposition. I seek to help where ever I can. The Lord is teaching me that. You won't find porn on my computer or hear me saying things about others or etc. when I am all alone, because I know the Lord hears me and knows my deepest thoughts.

I don't always get everything right, but I am working on it. I know the words in the Book of Proverbs are true and if I don't pay attention, they will come to pass in my life.

I can't change Obama Care. I'm not trying to. But the Lord gave my a good brain and I do my best to put it to good use. I know the cure for Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes. I apply those principles to my life and share them with anyone who will listen. But I also know those things are temporal.

My destiny is secure, I am now working for eternal rewards. I always tell James, I have made my choice. He has to make his. We can't talk it away or take a group vote and disannul it. The rubber meets the road with our every decision. "The curse without cause will not come." It's in my best interest to pay attention to that.

But thank you James, for another good round. You are good for us.

Have a great day!

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



James said:

 These pages get so long and confusing when one replies to a post. I am going this route.

 

Freedomist, I liked your posting of the full definition of "faith" 

 Ya know that faith thing works both ways.  Does that mean you have faith in all the other Gods and Goodnesses that are or were believed in for thousands of years?  You can no more call these Gods into question then I can your.

To use a quote from Professor Richard Dawkins: We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanityhas ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. 

 

How does this direct the question I asked you?  Where does your faith in man come?  Which one of the 8 definitions describes your faith in man?

In answer to your question, asking me why I don't have faith in other gods since I have faith in God makes no real sense.  Why should I believe in other gods because I believe in God?  Have they had a direct impact on my life?  Have I been led by them, by their way and seen the impact on my life and the people around me?  No.  This is where my faith comes from, in living out God's way and seeing his work through my life.

 

 

That "unity in diversity" is a nice thing. Comes in handy at election time I bet. As you may or may not know I have been doing this debate thing for years in all kinds of groups. This  unity in diversity don't hold up so well in many of them. Common in fact for Baptist to call Catholic all kinds of nasty thing well till they start on the Mormons and Jehovah Witness that is. Even good old Mark calls them religious cults. The Mormons won a few over with the millions they spent in California's gay marriage vote for awhile anyway.

 

This is the church age, the age of silos and division, where some pastors actually tell their flock not to mingle with other Christians outside their church.  This is the way of the church age, an age of great division, where kingdom living has been forgotten, where the age of segmented living, both in the body and in our own lives, rules supreme.  The kingdom age is coming, and the body will, once again, find its unity in diversity.  We have diversity with little unity right now, but this is not the way Christ called us to be.

 

 With Evolution more then a few of the major  Christian denominations fully supporting it. Catholic do, Methodist do, even same Baptist Churches are okay with evolution. That is good. 

Texas is on fire.8000 fires this year.SO

 NOW, THEREFORE, I, RICK PERRY, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.

 What’s next, dancing?  Oh, hell no.  Only the red man believes in rain dances.  Silly, ignorant red man!

 

A Christian Governor calling for days of prayer for rain does not force you to worship God or to even pray.  It merely invites you to do so.  Would you rather we pray to Father Science? 

 

Rick Perry is a staunch denier of climate change.

 While the scientific organizations responsible for analyzing the problem attribute the Texas droughts to climate change, the governor of the state denies its existence and instead urges prayer as a rational response to a crisis.  And let’s be clear here, the science isn’t “out” on whether or not manmade climate change is occurring.  It just isn’t.  You can’t depend on the virtues of science to get you through each day, as all of us do, and then just choose not to listen to the scientists when it doesn’t fit your political or religious stance.

 

Not sure Christianity should or does have a stand on climate change.  As for the science of climate change, well, that is hardly settled.  There can be no doubt the earth is going through some sort of change.  What kind of change that is I cannot say, but progressives and statists use this change to scare people to surrender their rights and their sovereignty in the name of saving the planet. 

Science and Christianity are not exclusive of one another, and evolution is a theory muddled in inconsistencies and great gaps of the unexplained.  

 

James,

you make so many statements about Christians and their beliefs that are either not based in fact or border on outright lying about what our faith is and who we are as a people.  You focus on the most negative parts you can find.  You judge Christ through the fallibility of humans who are not following his way.  You have many many sentences that are veiled accusations of racism, stupidity, superstition, and mysticism.  You need to find Christ followers around you and look at who they are and how they live their lives.  They are not racists.  They do not sit on their hands and pray for things to happen.  They do not judge others because they believe in this way of worship or that way of worship.  They are true to the Faith, that Christ is the living Word, that he died for our sins, he rose in three days, and gave us the great commandment and the great commission to fulfill the mission that he was called to fulfill.....the kingdom has come.....if they are racists, if they wait for God to do all the work, if they call Christians non-christians just because they believe in speaking in tongues, or don't believe in speaking in tongues, then they are not following the kingdom way.  It is not Christ you are seeing, it is human fallibility.

 

Mormons and Jehovahs witnesses have fundamental doctrinal issues with Christianity.  They do not believe the basic doctrine that Christ is the only way, that it is faith in Christ that is your own redemption, that he died for our sins and rose three days later.........They are as much like Christians as Muslims are...should we count them in the body of Christ?

Freedomist said:


James said:

 These pages get so long and confusing when one replies to a post. I am going this route.

 

Freedomist, I liked your posting of the full definition of "faith" 

 Ya know that faith thing works both ways.  Does that mean you have faith in all the other Gods and Goodnesses that are or were believed in for thousands of years?  You can no more call these Gods into question then I can your.

To use a quote from Professor Richard Dawkins: We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanityhas ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. 

 

How does this direct the question I asked you?  Where does your faith in man come?  Which one of the 8 definitions describes your faith in man?

In answer to your question, asking me why I don't have faith in other gods since I have faith in God makes no real sense.  Why should I believe in other gods because I believe in God?  Have they had a direct impact on my life?  Have I been led by them, by their way and seen the impact on my life and the people around me?  No.  This is where my faith comes from, in living out God's way and seeing his work through my life.

 

 

That "unity in diversity" is a nice thing. Comes in handy at election time I bet. As you may or may not know I have been doing this debate thing for years in all kinds of groups. This  unity in diversity don't hold up so well in many of them. Common in fact for Baptist to call Catholic all kinds of nasty thing well till they start on the Mormons and Jehovah Witness that is. Even good old Mark calls them religious cults. The Mormons won a few over with the millions they spent in California's gay marriage vote for awhile anyway.

 

This is the church age, the age of silos and division, where some pastors actually tell their flock not to mingle with other Christians outside their church.  This is the way of the church age, an age of great division, where kingdom living has been forgotten, where the age of segmented living, both in the body and in our own lives, rules supreme.  The kingdom age is coming, and the body will, once again, find its unity in diversity.  We have diversity with little unity right now, but this is not the way Christ called us to be.

 

 With Evolution more then a few of the major  Christian denominations fully supporting it. Catholic do, Methodist do, even same Baptist Churches are okay with evolution. That is good. 

Texas is on fire.8000 fires this year.SO

 NOW, THEREFORE, I, RICK PERRY, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.

 What’s next, dancing?  Oh, hell no.  Only the red man believes in rain dances.  Silly, ignorant red man!

 

A Christian Governor calling for days of prayer for rain does not force you to worship God or to even pray.  It merely invites you to do so.  Would you rather we pray to Father Science? 

 

Rick Perry is a staunch denier of climate change.

 While the scientific organizations responsible for analyzing the problem attribute the Texas droughts to climate change, the governor of the state denies its existence and instead urges prayer as a rational response to a crisis.  And let’s be clear here, the science isn’t “out” on whether or not manmade climate change is occurring.  It just isn’t.  You can’t depend on the virtues of science to get you through each day, as all of us do, and then just choose not to listen to the scientists when it doesn’t fit your political or religious stance.

 

Not sure Christianity should or does have a stand on climate change.  As for the science of climate change, well, that is hardly settled.  There can be no doubt the earth is going through some sort of change.  What kind of change that is I cannot say, but progressives and statists use this change to scare people to surrender their rights and their sovereignty in the name of saving the planet. 

Science and Christianity are not exclusive of one another, and evolution is a theory muddled in inconsistencies and great gaps of the unexplained.  

 

James,

you make so many statements about Christians and their beliefs that are either not based in fact or border on outright lying about what our faith is and who we are as a people.  You focus on the most negative parts you can find.  You judge Christ through the fallibility of humans who are not following his way.  You have many many sentences that are veiled accusations of racism, stupidity, superstition, and mysticism.  You need to find Christ followers around you and look at who they are and how they live their lives.  They are not racists.  They do not sit on their hands and pray for things to happen.  They do not judge others because they believe in this way of worship or that way of worship.  They are true to the Faith, that Christ is the living Word, that he died for our sins, he rose in three days, and gave us the great commandment and the great commission to fulfill the mission that he was called to fulfill.....the kingdom has come.....if they are racists, if they wait for God to do all the work, if they call Christians non-christians just because they believe in speaking in tongues, or don't believe in speaking in tongues, then they are not following the kingdom way.  It is not Christ you are seeing, it is human fallibility.

 

Mark,

 

Well spoken. You describe a faith that James cannot understand.  To know Christ, to love him, to trust him is the only way you can see his True being in your daily life.  How many times we Christians who have Christ with us daily, in all the parts of our lives, as parents, as workers, as friends, as shoppers, have seen the wondrous things Christ can do through jars of clay.  To know this joy, the joy of serving through Christ, is something I wish for everyone I know, including you James.  You may think you are here to seek and destroy our faith, but you are here because God has called you, and this and places like this you might regularly frequent, is where He can speak to you. 

Humble yourself before the Lord and you will not be disappointed.

From what you write Mark, and from what I know of Juanita, who is my covenant sister in Christ, you know exactly what that means, and how glorious it is to be the least, who is the first in the kingdom of the Lord.

 

 

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi folks,

These political/social arguments are interesting and anyone reading these forums know I am Scripture oriented so I pretty much agree with Ginger, Juanita, Paul and bicker with James.

But for me and I think for all Christians, that we don't sometimes bring out is there are real rewards and consequences of choice.  I am just passing through here. I anchored my eternity question. I now work on being pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

Scripture teaches us love one another, bear one another's burdens, pray for one another, do good to those who spitefully use you and etc. That makes us the best citizens a country or populace could ask for as we work on that. We don't always get it right, but that is what we are working on.

I agree with Paul, James' Straw Man arguments are a ruse. Now I understand James as I spent a good portion of my life in alcohol and an alcohol focus is the most selfish focus one can have. I didn't condemn everybody and everything like James does, but my focus, my time and my money were directed at pary central and what I thought it was providing me. I was very selfish. Cordial, but selfish. I couldn't share with you, the money I had set aside for Friday night.

Jesus is teaching me through His Word to think different, to act different and to be different. I go to work with a sense of gratitude and a cheerful disposition. I seek to help where ever I can. The Lord is teaching me that. You won't find porn on my computer or hear me saying things about others or etc. when I am all alone, because I know the Lord hears me and knows my deepest thoughts.

I don't always get everything right, but I am working on it. I know the words in the Book of Proverbs are true and if I don't pay attention, they will come to pass in my life.

I can't change Obama Care. I'm not trying to. But the Lord gave my a good brain and I do my best to put it to good use. I know the cure for Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes. I apply those principles to my life and share them with anyone who will listen. But I also know those things are temporal.

My destiny is secure, I am now working for eternal rewards. I always tell James, I have made my choice. He has to make his. We can't talk it away or take a group vote and disannul it. The rubber meets the road with our every decision. "The curse without cause will not come." It's in my best interest to pay attention to that.

But thank you James, for another good round. You are good for us.

Have a great day!

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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