The God in His creation discussion has drifted into this topic. Following my own advice and coping comments into a new post.
So is God really in charge? Is Christianity really true? Why would folks choose martrydom?
I'm missing a couple of comments here. They are buried somewhere in the other discussion. I think there is enough here for ya'll to follow what is happening.
From Denise
Martyrdom is common to many religions and causes. Look at the number of young Muslims willing to die for their beliefs on an almost daily basis. There have been many Jewish martyrs, Hindu martyrs, political martyrs etc over the years. Many of these causes are contradictory. The Druid priests died for their faith rather than submit to the Romans. Strength of belief is not itself an indicator of truth. It is an indicator of faith, which is belief without proof.
Reply by ZDENNY
Denise, All knowledge is based on faith because we can only know things with a degree of probability. The difference is that Christianity is an informed faith that has overwhelming evidence. You are proposing that the witnessess died for something that they knew was a lie which is irrational. Martyrdom takes place only when a follower really believes something is true.
Replies
Well, it wouldn't take a lot for an all powerful god to make an occasional (non-metaphysical) appearance would it?
How do you know that he doesn't? I heard testimony after testimony from people who claim to have seen angels, bright lights etc... Your worldview of naturalism just keeps you from believing any report.
Lisa,
I agree that it would be very peculiar for anyone to wish to die for a cause that they know to be false. My point is that people martyr themselves for causes that they believe to be true. We know that these causes cannot all be true, because the causes are often contradictory. Therefore, people must have died for causes that THEY believed to be true, but had a fair chance of being false. I therefore think that the reported martyrdom of followers of Jesus does not constitute any kind of evidence in the debate over the existence and/or teachings of god or Jesus.
Denise
Denise,
I'm going to jump off my own topic for a bit and repply to your comments.
I also do not understand when you say that "My God (I assume you mean the Christian understanding) is playing hide and seek" sonI will leave that alone for the moment.
I do want to touch on your comments regarding martrydom and intolerance of other faiths.
I am the first to agree that there are those of all faiths who are intolerant of one another. However, I do not think that it has to be that way. I think the violent manner in which we often see intolerence is itself intolerable. The way I see it I can easily tolerate and make room for someone of another faith. However, although I can work with, be nice to, and make room for religious items and celebrations, I cannot fully agree with those of a faith truly counter to my own. I do not mean denominations here, I mean truly different faiths. At some point I will probably make it known that I disagree and why. How far that conversation goes and it's end result will depend on how open minded and level headed both parties are. I think people of all faiths refuse to listen to another and harshly cut them off simply because they do not agree. I might decide to give someone of another faith air time but then share my own views and let it be known that I disagree with them.
I think we will find that in in all faiths the martyrs are the most dedicated and radical members. You are correct there are martrys in all faiths. Most likely they all appear a bit foolish to the rest of the world. I think that it is astounding that the disciples who lived with Jesus became martrys. After spending three years with Christ and witnessing the crucifixion these folks had to know the truth of the events. I find it hard to believe that they would give their lives, preach and especially die in support of a lie. I think that if they were not telling the truth they would have opted to save their own necks.