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 In this corner weighting 6000 years old is Young Earth Creation fighter Answers in Genesis.

 http://www.answersingenesis.org/

 

In this coner weighting 4.5 billion years is Old Earth Creation fighter Answers in Creation

 http://www.answersincreation.org/

 

Both websites are for Christians by Christians.

 

 Answers in Genesis opening line on website is:

Answers in Genesis believing it.defending it.proclaiming it.

 

Answers in Creation  opening line on website is:

Answers in Creation "Bringing the Bible and science together without conflict.

 

Lets get it on.  Ding ding


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 Young Earth vs.Old Earth debate- Ham and Lisle vs. Poss and Kaiser

Part 1 of 8

 

Heres a link to part 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4K4Np_1Oco&feature=related

 

From there it is easy to find the other 6 parts.

     I don't see old earth vs new earth as a debate, but I think it is good that you brought the subject up.  2 Pet 3 vs 5-6 says "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  Whereby the world that was, being overflowed with water, perished."

I have never heard of a Bible thumper that was willingly ignorant of the flood that destroyed most of the human race 1656 years after the recreation of the earth 6000 years ago.  Unbelievers who do not believe in the divine inspiration of scripture are willingly ignorant of much more than the flood that destroyed the world billions of years ago, before man was created 6000 years ago.  It was pointed out to me by someone who used to be in the Kingdom Insight community, that the official dogma of the Catholic church is old earth creation.  Since those at the top of the hierarchy of the Catholic church have such a low view of the authority of scripture, and a very high view of their own Church authority, they probably believe in old earth creation based on other things than what is taught in scripture.  Since people are "willingly ignorant" of old earth creation there probably is not a whole lot I can do to change that, but if the subject is brought up, I will do my best to teach the truth on the subject matter.      

   

 If you and others believe in a literal interpretation of the bible.Fine, then do it. Flat earth and all.

 

The clergy letter project shows much support for evolution from the leaders of churches across America.

 

http://blue.butler.edu/~mzimmerm/rel_evol_sun.htm

 

If you need the whole bible to be true to keep your faith, you have already lost it.

 

LOL with 1 in 5 American adults beliveing that the sun revolves around the earth it is no wonder so many believe in a 6000 yo earth.

 

 

 


Steve Belttari said:

     I don't see old earth vs new earth as a debate, but I think it is good that you brought the subject up.  2 Pet 3 vs 5-6 says "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  Whereby the world that was, being overflowed with water, perished."

I have never heard of a Bible thumper that was willingly ignorant of the flood that destroyed most of the human race 1656 years after the recreation of the earth 6000 years ago.  Unbelievers who do not believe in the divine inspiration of scripture are willingly ignorant of much more than the flood that destroyed the world billions of years ago, before man was created 6000 years ago.  It was pointed out to me by someone who used to be in the Kingdom Insight community, that the official dogma of the Catholic church is old earth creation.  Since those at the top of the hierarchy of the Catholic church have such a low view of the authority of scripture, and a very high view of their own Church authority, they probably believe in old earth creation based on other things than what is taught in scripture.  Since people are "willingly ignorant" of old earth creation there probably is not a whole lot I can do to change that, but if the subject is brought up, I will do my best to teach the truth on the subject matter.      

   

     One of the others(Christopher Columbus) understood from verses from the book of Job that the earth was round.  Many others at that time also believed that.  Where on earth are you getting that 1 in 5 Americans believe that the sun revolves around the earth.  Probably just another indoctrination of compulsory public miseducation, along with evolution.  It doesn't surprise me that the "clergy" support evolution, because these are days of apostasy.  

James said:

 If you and others believe in a literal interpretation of the bible.Fine, then do it. Flat earth and all.

 

The clergy letter project shows much support for evolution from the leaders of churches across America.

 

http://blue.butler.edu/~mzimmerm/rel_evol_sun.htm

 

If you need the whole bible to be true to keep your faith, you have already lost it.

 

LOL with 1 in 5 American adults beliveing that the sun revolves around the earth it is no wonder so many believe in a 6000 yo earth.

 

 

 


Steve Belttari said:

     I don't see old earth vs new earth as a debate, but I think it is good that you brought the subject up.  2 Pet 3 vs 5-6 says "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:  Whereby the world that was, being overflowed with water, perished."

I have never heard of a Bible thumper that was willingly ignorant of the flood that destroyed most of the human race 1656 years after the recreation of the earth 6000 years ago.  Unbelievers who do not believe in the divine inspiration of scripture are willingly ignorant of much more than the flood that destroyed the world billions of years ago, before man was created 6000 years ago.  It was pointed out to me by someone who used to be in the Kingdom Insight community, that the official dogma of the Catholic church is old earth creation.  Since those at the top of the hierarchy of the Catholic church have such a low view of the authority of scripture, and a very high view of their own Church authority, they probably believe in old earth creation based on other things than what is taught in scripture.  Since people are "willingly ignorant" of old earth creation there probably is not a whole lot I can do to change that, but if the subject is brought up, I will do my best to teach the truth on the subject matter.      

   

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: [Isaiah 40:22] Seek and you will find.

To join the Godless model, "Check your brains at the door before entering." Demons laugh at how easy it is to steer foolish men around by the nose. The evolution narrative is the most foolish narrative ever devised and to follow it one must choose to remain willingly ignorant.

The evolution narrative has prevented/hindered academics from getting out of the starting gate. One must agree to not think logically to be allowed to play the game. It is the price of admission. You can't randomly generate context from character base. And you can't randomly generate context of integration from cause and effect. Ask any engineer or IT Tech. More to the point, you can't comprehend an integration in operation from a cause and effect lens.

Everything is, "Evolution fined tuned this" or "Through random mutation..." . Engineers and Information System Specialists pay lip service to the godless model, but apply absolutely none of its precepts when doing real work.

For example, cancer is not random mutation. It is a cell running very real programs. On US News and World Report, a Research Scientist found the cancer cell produces two hormones; one at the beginning of growth and one at a certain point in the growth. The first hormone induces the host site to produce new capillary growth. The second hormone turns off the capillary growth. Real diagnostic work, awesome. But then to bow to the emperor, he said, "Evolution fined tuned the tumor to out compete his fellow tumors." What? Changing hats  in the middle of the diagnostic research to appease the emperor. The first was extracting logical, comprehensible inter-dependencies and the second submerged it right back into incomprehensible complexity.

To follow his original diagnostics, anytime one cell is programmed to produce a messenger another cell is programmed to respond to, it's called integrated preprogramming. Look for another place in that integrated environment for that process to occur naturally; only naturally meaning, "Customarily accepted or expected." One finds it, the trophoblast cell used in each and every birth cycle. Researchers know about the trophoblast/cancer connection, but they are just employees and follow the money trail.

Pharmaceutical research is directed by the Block Stock Holders through the Board of Directors via the CEO. They measure success by how Pfizer or Merck is trading on Wall Street. You kill the 200 billion dollar cancer goose laying to golden egg and Wall Street would plummet. They have a vested interest in financing Academic Research, Medical School Text Books and supplying Doctors with the Pharmaceutical Desk Reference and financing Congress to pass laws that make sure insurance remains pharmaceutical escrow.

Follow the money trail. They have a vested interest in making sure that logic oriented physiology remains incomprehensible complexity. If you develop cancer and put your life in the hands of someone or group of someones who think only in terms of, "What's in it for me..." good luck. They will watch you die and still swear by Radiation, Chemo and the Knife. Their livelihood, their club memberships and their all expense paid symposiums to the South Pacific depends on it.

That's the same reason Professors tow the party line>Accreditation and Tenure. They make talk in hushed circles, but in public, they bow the emperor. True, there are some so caught up in the illusion/delusion, they continue to write books on foolishness. Two Professors wrote a theory that evolution fined tuned the male of the species to rape the female of the species for survival of the fittest and then tried to equate male organ size to promiscuity. Foolishness. Nothing has to work, just appear to work in the narrative.

Ask them, "Well I have a tattoo, why wasn't my child born with one? Because my child was created from a different Whole Life Template than I was, so no matter what I do to my body, it won't affect my child. Yes the genetic database of a Whole Life Template can be altered such as being exposed to radiation, but it always results in deformity, unless it is instructions for a vital function which results in death. An interdependency has not been satisfied.

The genetic database does not code for protein>hormones, enzymes, neurotransmitters or antibodies. Without the pre-integrated interdependencies such as the cell receptor sites, the cell ribosomal complex and the heretofore unknown instruction set that tells the ribosomal complex how to build the RNAmessenger to extract specific 3digit DNA codes from specific digital addresses and the interdependencies of transcription/fold, integrated life would not be possible, and it can not be understood by a cause and effect lens. They are interdependent, not linear dependent.

Estrogen is a regulated hormone, but BPA released from plastic resins, mimics estrogen causing unregulated estrogen to flow through the body, causing young girls to go into puberty at a very early age. Nothing is changing, systems are still in place, processes are just being accelerated or deteriorated.

Our bodies requires specific biochemical compounds to satisfy interdependencies to maintain its checks and balances, keep defenses in place to prevent renegade processes from occurring.  It is a context driven biointegrated environment and has requirements. It is not made to run on synthetic chemicals, it was created to operate on biochemical nutrients supplied mainly by the plant kingdom although we do need nutrients like B12 from the animal kingdom unless we supplement. Enzymes are heat sensitive. Apply too much heat and they are deactivated.

Logical, comprehensible and very understandable. But that comprehension detracts from Merck's bottom line. Pharmaceuticals are profit oriented alchemy. Shut down the alarm systems allow the integration to continue to deteriorate. Keep us dependent on more and more drugs. This drug to combat the effects of that one. Mammon>barter or "What's in it for me?" is the root of all evil.

I am the most important member of my health care team as I reap the rewards or suffer the consequences. When this bullet train called life stops at my stop, I have to get off all by myself. I will continue study on my own. Life is choice, I have made mine; so it is with each of us.

Mark   

In writing papers like the above, I want to be very careful not to sound hostile, angry or "Thinking more highly of myself than I ought." For anyone wanting to read the complete cancer paper it is here: http://www.thereflectionhouse.com/The_Cure_For_Cancer.htm

I am saved because of God's mercy through The Blood of the Lamb. I can self destruct faster than anyone on the planet. God doesn't need me. He offered me a way out of my dilemma and I took it. He offered me classes, not no health, not on pounding the evolution narrative into the ground and not how to one up my neighbor, but on how to learn to be a trusted steward, a laborer in the field and a disciple of Christ. If we have Christ, we have it all, if we don't we have nothing, we will still fall into Sheol.

Demons are very intelligent, high energy-never sleep and specialize in divide and conquer. I believe there will be people in Blood Bought Eternity that were still confused over evolution, couldn't quite break the homosexual bondage and just like the rest of us that still had a lot of imperfections in our lives. Redemption is by faith through Christ. God will work out the details.

I work in diagnostics, so I favor that type of study. It is not a requirement, just like free-handing a beautiful mural is not a requirement. Good thing, I can't draw a straight line with a ruler. I believe if a Muslim or Hindu was searching for the Truth, the Holy Spirit would see it and hear it and go get them, usually through one of His children. My mom used to tell us kids over and over, "It's love that wins." And that is what Scripture says, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" [Mathew 5:44]

In the Old Testament where it says, "If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee." [Proverbs 5:22,23] it does not mean a lightning strike.

In ancient times, no one had matches. They had to keep their fires going all night. Sometimes someone's fire would go out and they would come to you to get hot coals to restart their fire. They carried them in heavy woven baskets upon their heads. Before you could give them hot coals out of your fire, you had to recharge it, so your fire wouldn't go out. By helping them restart their fire, you were recharging your own. These are the type of classes I have to take over and over. God will share things with us if we are interested, but they are not meant to be a club for our neighbor. When we use them, they are only meant to say, "Come and see..."

I am sorry for sounding negative.

Mark

I subscribe to a number of online ezines including health ezines. I am glad they taught me about BPA released in Plastics, Bromide in flour, health damaging starch like french fries, but tonight I realized they were unintentionally teaching me something else...negativity.

Earlier tonight, I was watching Joel Osteen and was refreshed by his joyful positive spirit. I play an inspirational station in the background while I sleep and just moments ago, I was awakened with Jesus loving on me. My spirit was being transported with the awesome praise music playing in the background.

So while it is good to share knowledge that godless evolution is a delusion and we are being deceived about health issues, there is a danger of absorbing the very negativity we are opposing.

I say I love people. But I see I have my favorite people I love to hate. There is no one named Merck. There are a lot of people in need of prayer working for an institution named Merck. If I apply what wonderful people, at the Lord's prompting, did for me, I could pray for the people at Merck and use my position as an ambassador of Christ and meet a lot of those people as we rejoice together when we get home.

We are just passing through here, whether it is 60 years or 95 years. It's not the years, but the investment in those years that will count in eternity. Heaven won't need HVAC or a Health Watch. While those things may be useful here, they have no eternal value. "Bear one another's burdens" has eternal value.

I will continue to try to learn about God's Creation and things I need to do to get and stay healthy, I am going to be more on guard against the negativity I have been absorbing and spend more time in God's Word and learning how to love my neighbor, especially those deceived by the enemy. Someone did that for me.

Thanks for listening,

Mark

     In Phil 1 vs 15-18 talks about the motives for preaching, so even if ones motives are not very pure, we should rejoice that the Gospel is being preached.  The flip side of that is the reproach that scandals bring to the Gospel.   1 Tim 3 vs 6-7 talks about a novice and one not repected by outsiders falling into a trap of the Devil, I question if Joes Osteen has the credentials to be a "professional holy man", or is sanctified(set apart) to do the work of the ministry.  As far as godless evolution, I think a Christian is creating a stumbling block to some people if they are not teaching old earth creation.   With most atheists evolution is a delusion and it doesn't really matter if you teach them old earth creation, their mind is already made up and they just want to debate.  However, there is some atheists who do no fall into this mold, and by not teaching the truth on the subject matter we create a stumbling block for them.     

Mark Edward Kroger said:

I subscribe to a number of online ezines including health ezines. I am glad they taught me about BPA released in Plastics, Bromide in flour, health damaging starch like french fries, but tonight I realized they were unintentionally teaching me something else...negativity.

Earlier tonight, I was watching Joel Osteen and was refreshed by his joyful positive spirit. I play an inspirational station in the background while I sleep and just moments ago, I was awakened with Jesus loving on me. My spirit was being transported with the awesome praise music playing in the background.

So while it is good to share knowledge that godless evolution is a delusion and we are being deceived about health issues, there is a danger of absorbing the very negativity we are opposing.

I say I love people. But I see I have my favorite people I love to hate. There is no one named Merck. There are a lot of people in need of prayer working for an institution named Merck. If I apply what wonderful people, at the Lord's prompting, did for me, I could pray for the people at Merck and use my position as an ambassador of Christ and meet a lot of those people as we rejoice together when we get home.

We are just passing through here, whether it is 60 years or 95 years. It's not the years, but the investment in those years that will count in eternity. Heaven won't need HVAC or a Health Watch. While those things may be useful here, they have no eternal value. "Bear one another's burdens" has eternal value.

I will continue to try to learn about God's Creation and things I need to do to get and stay healthy, I am going to be more on guard against the negativity I have been absorbing and spend more time in God's Word and learning how to love my neighbor, especially those deceived by the enemy. Someone did that for me.

Thanks for listening,

Mark

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response and your views. Remember, "Love one another, pray for one another and bear one another's burdens."

I offer this cordially Steve... remember Romans 14:4? Everybody is not for everybody and not everyone teaches to the same level. Joel is a door greeter. There are unsaved people at work that watch and listen to Joel. Milk before meat.

I don't believe in old earth creation, Steve, at least not billions of years old. But I always say, Let's pray for one another that the Lord would teach both of us.

When nonChristians watch Christians, I think they are far more interested in how we treat each other than on whether we agree on everything.

Last year, I snapped at a coworker that was at the time being a real butthole and I felt so bad, I bought him a laptop as a peace offering. People watch to see if we are trying to live what we profess. The Lord sees me when I am alone, whether I go to say, porn sites or not, but I think people are watching to see how I resond to difficult situations and the attitude we have in general; whether I backbite, ridicule or am sarcastic.

Sometimes a demon is waiting around a corner with a coal shovel and wham! surprise! Caught off guard. People watch how we respond to those and how we work through them. I love the Lord's classes...after I have passed them.

In His body, He has a whole lot of different parts and sometimes this part doesn't understand that part, but 1John 4:2 tells us how to test the Spirit.

Even if we disagree on some things Steve, we can agree to pray for one another, huh? Maybe the Lord will show me what you're seeing that I can't see yet.

Thanks Steve,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

      Mark,

      When I joined the Kingdom Insight online community 2 years ago, the last thing that I had in mind was having discussions with atheists.  However, Juanita referred to her role in the Body of Christ as being a bridge, and she also said that she used the internet to reach out to atheists, so I was open to that.

     I don't have any problem with Joel Osteen being a door greeter, but a teacher, well, that's a whole different thing.  James 3 vs 1 says:  "MY brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."  2 Tim 4 vs 3-4 says:  "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own evil desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."  I have watched Osteen 3 or 4 times and not once did he use the word sin.  I don't see Osteen as a teacher in the Body of Christ, but as a benefactor of corporate state christianity.  Would I like to see Joel and his beautiful wife disgraced by a scandal?  Certainly not.

     As far as new earth vs old earth, the reason that I mentioned that the official dogma of the Catholic church is old earth creation, is because any dogma in the Catholic church is subject to change, so it wouldn't surprise me if one day the dogma is changed to the creation of man through the evolutionary process.  For all I know, this might already be their dogma.  The Word of God doesn't work that way though, 2 Pet 1 vs 20 says:  "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."  Whether God's Word teaches old earth vs new earth is not a question of one's interpretation, but what the Bible teaches.  2 Tim 4 vs 2 says:  "preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season", this is still out of season for me, but I did my best with what I understand to be the correct interpretation of old earth vs new earth.  

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response and your views. Remember, "Love one another, pray for one another and bear one another's burdens."

I offer this cordially Steve... remember Romans 14:4? Everybody is not for everybody and not everyone teaches to the same level. Joel is a door greeter. There are unsaved people at work that watch and listen to Joel. Milk before meat.

I don't believe in old earth creation, Steve, at least not billions of years old. But I always say, Let's pray for one another that the Lord would teach both of us.

When nonChristians watch Christians, I think they are far more interested in how we treat each other than on whether we agree on everything.

Last year, I snapped at a coworker that was at the time being a real butthole and I felt so bad, I bought him a laptop as a peace offering. People watch to see if we are trying to live what we profess. The Lord sees me when I am alone, whether I go to say, porn sites or not, but I think people are watching to see how I resond to difficult situations and the attitude we have in general; whether I backbite, ridicule or am sarcastic.

Sometimes a demon is waiting around a corner with a coal shovel and wham! surprise! Caught off guard. People watch how we respond to those and how we work through them. I love the Lord's classes...after I have passed them.

In His body, He has a whole lot of different parts and sometimes this part doesn't understand that part, but 1John 4:2 tells us how to test the Spirit.

Even if we disagree on some things Steve, we can agree to pray for one another, huh? Maybe the Lord will show me what you're seeing that I can't see yet.

Thanks Steve,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for this cordial response, I appreciate it. I realize there are people wondering in off the streets, some Christian and some not, reading these Forums and I don't want to be a hindrance to anyone, Christian and especially a non Christian. I tremble at the thought that someone might drop into Sheol because I blocked the door. Although I know our Lord isn't limited to my puny offerings, I don't want to be anyone's stumbling block.

Most Universities including Catholic Universities teach from a Humanities Based Core> The Renaissance Man or Man is the Center of All Things. It is the Philosophy the Greek Sophists sought to export as Wisdom. It now takes 6 years to get the same technical value, a 4 year degree offered just 20 years ago. It is indoctrination from the god of this world required to enter the kingdom Lucifer offered Jesus.

Our Lord gave him all of the hierarchy and choose the foolish of preaching and the weak and beggarly things to confound the wise. When this age comes to a close, the Lord will lay claim to His purchased possession and all things will revert back to their rightful Owner. But right now we that are purchased by the Blood are learning to be Ambassadors of Christ and intercessors to Christ in a field of lost souls. The same field we were rescued from.

We are taking classes to learn how to do that as we grow away from the old life and sometimes we stumble. I want a lost world to see that Jesus is soooo awesome, that it is He through the person of the Holy Spirit that is working in us that gets us from the old man to the new.

It's like remodeling an old house; if we look at all the work that needs to be done, it's so overwhelming, we are tempted to quit before we start. Very few of us had a plan at the point of New Birth. But Jesus did. Grab a hold and hang on tight.

I heard a debate from Cornell, Creation vs Evolution an Atheist Professor from Cornell and a Christian Attorney. The Christian Attorney knew nothing about integration and required interdependencies. He formed the debate from what he knew, an Attorney's argument. After the debate, the Cornell Professor, who was very cordial the whole time, took a vote from the student audience on which was right, Creation or Evolution. Over 80 percent of the kids, voted Creation. We are born with an innate hunger for something missing and when we hear it, a light goes on. This is what was missing. Faith comes by hearing, more specifically, hearing of Truth. -My paraphrase.

I have to get ready for work.

Thanks Steve for working with me to treat each other as Brothers in Christ. So a dying world will see we have something worth catching.

Have a great day!

Mark

 

Steve Belttari said:

      Mark,

      When I joined the Kingdom Insight online community 2 years ago, the last thing that I had in mind was having discussions with atheists.  However, Juanita referred to her role in the Body of Christ as being a bridge, and she also said that she used the internet to reach out to atheists, so I was open to that.

     I don't have any problem with Joel Osteen being a door greeter, but a teacher, well, that's a whole different thing.  James 3 vs 1 says:  "MY brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."  2 Tim 4 vs 3-4 says:  "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own evil desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."  I have watched Osteen 3 or 4 times and not once did he use the word sin.  I don't see Osteen as a teacher in the Body of Christ, but as a benefactor of corporate state christianity.  Would I like to see Joel and his beautiful wife disgraced by a scandal?  Certainly not.

     As far as new earth vs old earth, the reason that I mentioned that the official dogma of the Catholic church is old earth creation, is because any dogma in the Catholic church is subject to change, so it wouldn't surprise me if one day the dogma is changed to the creation of man through the evolutionary process.  For all I know, this might already be their dogma.  The Word of God doesn't work that way though, 2 Pet 1 vs 20 says:  "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."  Whether God's Word teaches old earth vs new earth is not a question of one's interpretation, but what the Bible teaches.  2 Tim 4 vs 2 says:  "preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season", this is still out of season for me, but I did my best with what I understand to be the correct interpretation of old earth vs new earth.  

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response and your views. Remember, "Love one another, pray for one another and bear one another's burdens."

I offer this cordially Steve... remember Romans 14:4? Everybody is not for everybody and not everyone teaches to the same level. Joel is a door greeter. There are unsaved people at work that watch and listen to Joel. Milk before meat.

I don't believe in old earth creation, Steve, at least not billions of years old. But I always say, Let's pray for one another that the Lord would teach both of us.

When nonChristians watch Christians, I think they are far more interested in how we treat each other than on whether we agree on everything.

Last year, I snapped at a coworker that was at the time being a real butthole and I felt so bad, I bought him a laptop as a peace offering. People watch to see if we are trying to live what we profess. The Lord sees me when I am alone, whether I go to say, porn sites or not, but I think people are watching to see how I resond to difficult situations and the attitude we have in general; whether I backbite, ridicule or am sarcastic.

Sometimes a demon is waiting around a corner with a coal shovel and wham! surprise! Caught off guard. People watch how we respond to those and how we work through them. I love the Lord's classes...after I have passed them.

In His body, He has a whole lot of different parts and sometimes this part doesn't understand that part, but 1John 4:2 tells us how to test the Spirit.

Even if we disagree on some things Steve, we can agree to pray for one another, huh? Maybe the Lord will show me what you're seeing that I can't see yet.

Thanks Steve,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

     Mark,

     Romans 15 vs 14 says that we should be able to admonish one another.  I think that we are in agreement that "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" is behind the delusion of evolution.   In my personal experience, old earth creation serves as more of a check in a discussion with an atheist-evolutionist.  The debater-philosopher of the age will go into his rhetoric about the fables of the Bible, especially new earth creation, you patiently teach old earth creation truth, and that is about it.  The new adjustment to this is that God created man through the evolutionary process, a fable in itself.     

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for this cordial response, I appreciate it. I realize there are people wondering in off the streets, some Christian and some not, reading these Forums and I don't want to be a hindrance to anyone, Christian and especially a non Christian. I tremble at the thought that someone might drop into Sheol because I blocked the door. Although I know our Lord isn't limited to my puny offerings, I don't want to be anyone's stumbling block.

Most Universities including Catholic Universities teach from a Humanities Based Core> The Renaissance Man or Man is the Center of All Things. It is the Philosophy the Greek Sophists sought to export as Wisdom. It now takes 6 years to get the same technical value, a 4 year degree offered just 20 years ago. It is indoctrination from the god of this world required to enter the kingdom Lucifer offered Jesus.

Our Lord gave him all of the hierarchy and choose the foolish of preaching and the weak and beggarly things to confound the wise. When this age comes to a close, the Lord will lay claim to His purchased possession and all things will revert back to their rightful Owner. But right now we that are purchased by the Blood are learning to be Ambassadors of Christ and intercessors to Christ in a field of lost souls. The same field we were rescued from.

We are taking classes to learn how to do that as we grow away from the old life and sometimes we stumble. I want a lost world to see that Jesus is soooo awesome, that it is He through the person of the Holy Spirit that is working in us that gets us from the old man to the new.

It's like remodeling an old house; if we look at all the work that needs to be done, it's so overwhelming, we are tempted to quit before we start. Very few of us had a plan at the point of New Birth. But Jesus did. Grab a hold and hang on tight.

I heard a debate from Cornell, Creation vs Evolution an Atheist Professor from Cornell and a Christian Attorney. The Christian Attorney knew nothing about integration and required interdependencies. He formed the debate from what he knew, an Attorney's argument. After the debate, the Cornell Professor, who was very cordial the whole time, took a vote from the student audience on which was right, Creation or Evolution. Over 80 percent of the kids, voted Creation. We are born with an innate hunger for something missing and when we hear it, a light goes on. This is what was missing. Faith comes by hearing, more specifically, hearing of Truth. -My paraphrase.

I have to get ready for work.

Thanks Steve for working with me to treat each other as Brothers in Christ. So a dying world will see we have something worth catching.

Have a great day!

Mark

 

Steve Belttari said:

      Mark,

      When I joined the Kingdom Insight online community 2 years ago, the last thing that I had in mind was having discussions with atheists.  However, Juanita referred to her role in the Body of Christ as being a bridge, and she also said that she used the internet to reach out to atheists, so I was open to that.

     I don't have any problem with Joel Osteen being a door greeter, but a teacher, well, that's a whole different thing.  James 3 vs 1 says:  "MY brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."  2 Tim 4 vs 3-4 says:  "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own evil desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."  I have watched Osteen 3 or 4 times and not once did he use the word sin.  I don't see Osteen as a teacher in the Body of Christ, but as a benefactor of corporate state christianity.  Would I like to see Joel and his beautiful wife disgraced by a scandal?  Certainly not.

     As far as new earth vs old earth, the reason that I mentioned that the official dogma of the Catholic church is old earth creation, is because any dogma in the Catholic church is subject to change, so it wouldn't surprise me if one day the dogma is changed to the creation of man through the evolutionary process.  For all I know, this might already be their dogma.  The Word of God doesn't work that way though, 2 Pet 1 vs 20 says:  "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."  Whether God's Word teaches old earth vs new earth is not a question of one's interpretation, but what the Bible teaches.  2 Tim 4 vs 2 says:  "preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season", this is still out of season for me, but I did my best with what I understand to be the correct interpretation of old earth vs new earth.  

Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response and your views. Remember, "Love one another, pray for one another and bear one another's burdens."

I offer this cordially Steve... remember Romans 14:4? Everybody is not for everybody and not everyone teaches to the same level. Joel is a door greeter. There are unsaved people at work that watch and listen to Joel. Milk before meat.

I don't believe in old earth creation, Steve, at least not billions of years old. But I always say, Let's pray for one another that the Lord would teach both of us.

When nonChristians watch Christians, I think they are far more interested in how we treat each other than on whether we agree on everything.

Last year, I snapped at a coworker that was at the time being a real butthole and I felt so bad, I bought him a laptop as a peace offering. People watch to see if we are trying to live what we profess. The Lord sees me when I am alone, whether I go to say, porn sites or not, but I think people are watching to see how I resond to difficult situations and the attitude we have in general; whether I backbite, ridicule or am sarcastic.

Sometimes a demon is waiting around a corner with a coal shovel and wham! surprise! Caught off guard. People watch how we respond to those and how we work through them. I love the Lord's classes...after I have passed them.

In His body, He has a whole lot of different parts and sometimes this part doesn't understand that part, but 1John 4:2 tells us how to test the Spirit.

Even if we disagree on some things Steve, we can agree to pray for one another, huh? Maybe the Lord will show me what you're seeing that I can't see yet.

Thanks Steve,

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

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