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 In this corner weighting 6000 years old is Young Earth Creation fighter Answers in Genesis.

 http://www.answersingenesis.org/

 

In this coner weighting 4.5 billion years is Old Earth Creation fighter Answers in Creation

 http://www.answersincreation.org/

 

Both websites are for Christians by Christians.

 

 Answers in Genesis opening line on website is:

Answers in Genesis believing it.defending it.proclaiming it.

 

Answers in Creation  opening line on website is:

Answers in Creation "Bringing the Bible and science together without conflict.

 

Lets get it on.  Ding ding


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Hi Folks,

I am watching David Jeremiah and he is teaching on Song of Songs. For years working on my little Website, I looked for motivational pages and point to ponder pages as my focus was on people who did not know the Lord and was trying to find a way to build a bridge.

I find myself more and more hungering for a deeper intimacy with the Lord. I see where Paul was talking about not getting bogged down with foolish arguments that profit nothing. Nobody will receive Christ through the mind. And Satan [not people] is the master of the sidetrack.

So I am signing off, it's been fun.

See everyone in Heaven,

Mark

     I used to have a business partner who was this gadfly-debater type, when I first met Ed he told me that Christians were terrible at defending doctrine in debates.  My response was that it was not God's will to be debating with people about spiritual things.  His position was Paul debating with the Atheneian philosophers in Acts 17, so I said fair enough.  I have to admit that debating with Ed all the time when I was his partner did help me to defend the truths of scripture better.  Even though Ed said that he was a Christian, I don't think that he had saving faith in Jesus Christ, because he doesn't believe that Jesus Christ was and is God.  He also believes that God created man through the evolutionary process.  At one time Ed might have been saved but was "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive".  Even though God used my experience with Ed to help improve my faith, I do think that he was contaminated by being a gadfly-debater.  So I think that we have to be careful with these type of discussions.   Don't know what to make of me?   I met the Collier brothers on Libertarian Liberty Districts, Bill connected me with Kingdom Insight, so I'm into politics, economics, history etc...I am also a prophet in the Body of Christ.  As much as I fall short of God's glory, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, so the Lord is telling me in His Word(1 Tim 4 vs 14) not to neglect the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prohecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.   Kind of interesting how life works out sometimes, I'm living in the exact same apartment that I lived in 1988 when I received the gift of prophecy.  Much has happened since then, its like the Lord is trying to put me back on track after my wanderings in life.      
Lisa said:

  And since I am on here once a day at best I'll leave a general comment to all of you.  

Mark, thanks for praying about the computer.  I think one may be on the way.  My father is thinking of getting a new system.  When he does I'll get one of the older systems.   If that is not all that I want,  I may be able to upgrade with some parts I have in the backroom.  Time will tell.   The parts aren't compatible with the motherboard in this system.  Thanks for sharing the links.  I plan to look at them eventually.  At the momment I need to finish this and make a security walk before other commitments tie up my time.

   James, I enjoy that you challenge our positions and understanding.   Thanks for toning down the confrontation. 

  Steve, I honestly can't figure out how to take you, but I do enjoy seeing your comments. 

 

I think Mark is right when he says that this debate does little more than entertain our obviously intelectual minds.   When I checked out the squirrel and the bird I was making the quickest of comparisons.  Maybe I would change my mind with more study but I doubt it.   By the way I have been known to be very content doing some rather scientific activities.  Nice try at getting me mad, James, but that isn't what this is about. 

Had a rather interesting day where I once again showed my human side while listening to Mrs. Pastor.   God must be trying to do something with one or both of us as much as we but heads.   I shall go see if I can act more like my faith teaches that I should. 

Hope that you fellows have had a great day. 

 

 

   Was Ed a good guy? I'd bet he was/is.

 

 Was Jesus a real person? I like to think so.Was Jesus able to perform miracles? Thats where I would have to agree with Ed. IMO, Jesus was a man. A man well ahead of his time in that he was a liberal,champion for the poor and women alike.You shall love your neighbor as yourself mentality,That I fully agree with.

 

Ed shares much with around a third of American Christians in his belief that god used billions of years to tweak evolution into making man along with every other living thing. Why would a super being care about that if the person is a good loving caring human?

I don't see why it is such a big deal.

 

 



Steve Belttari said:

     I used to have a business partner who was this gadfly-debater type, when I first met Ed he told me that Christians were terrible at defending doctrine in debates.  My response was that it was not God's will to be debating with people about spiritual things.  His position was Paul debating with the Atheneian philosophers in Acts 17, so I said fair enough.  I have to admit that debating with Ed all the time when I was his partner did help me to defend the truths of scripture better.  Even though Ed said that he was a Christian, I don't think that he had saving faith in Jesus Christ, because he doesn't believe that Jesus Christ was and is God.  He also believes that God created man through the evolutionary process.  At one time Ed might have been saved but was "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive".  Even though God used my experience with Ed to help improve my faith, I do think that he was contaminated by being a gadfly-debater.  So I think that we have to be careful with these type of discussions.   Don't know what to make of me?   I met the Collier brothers on Libertarian Liberty Districts, Bill connected me with Kingdom Insight, so I'm into politics, economics, history etc...I am also a prophet in the Body of Christ.  As much as I fall short of God's glory, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, so the Lord is telling me in His Word(1 Tim 4 vs 14) not to neglect the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prohecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.   Kind of interesting how life works out sometimes, I'm living in the exact same apartment that I lived in 1988 when I received the gift of prophecy.  Much has happened since then, its like the Lord is trying to put me back on track after my wanderings in life.      
Lisa said:

  And since I am on here once a day at best I'll leave a general comment to all of you.  

Mark, thanks for praying about the computer.  I think one may be on the way.  My father is thinking of getting a new system.  When he does I'll get one of the older systems.   If that is not all that I want,  I may be able to upgrade with some parts I have in the backroom.  Time will tell.   The parts aren't compatible with the motherboard in this system.  Thanks for sharing the links.  I plan to look at them eventually.  At the momment I need to finish this and make a security walk before other commitments tie up my time.

   James, I enjoy that you challenge our positions and understanding.   Thanks for toning down the confrontation. 

  Steve, I honestly can't figure out how to take you, but I do enjoy seeing your comments. 

 

I think Mark is right when he says that this debate does little more than entertain our obviously intelectual minds.   When I checked out the squirrel and the bird I was making the quickest of comparisons.  Maybe I would change my mind with more study but I doubt it.   By the way I have been known to be very content doing some rather scientific activities.  Nice try at getting me mad, James, but that isn't what this is about. 

Had a rather interesting day where I once again showed my human side while listening to Mrs. Pastor.   God must be trying to do something with one or both of us as much as we but heads.   I shall go see if I can act more like my faith teaches that I should. 

Hope that you fellows have had a great day. 

 

 

     James,

     Ed did have a Koreshian charismatic personality and was good at establishing new accounts as long as I didn't let him talk to the customer to much.  Ed could be difficult to deal with, on a job site one day our customer had to yell at us get us to stop us from arguing with each other.  After that incident I gave Ed our accounts, worked for him for awile and then went my own way.  I look at things as an imperfect spiritual minded person, 2 Cor 6 vs 14 says not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers.  In the process of progressive sanctification, I see myself as doing more business with believers.   Jesus Christ performed all His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, so did the apostles in the book af acts.  We are still in the age of grace, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for us today.     

James said:

   Was Ed a good guy? I'd bet he was/is.

 

 Was Jesus a real person? I like to think so.Was Jesus able to perform miracles? Thats where I would have to agree with Ed. IMO, Jesus was a man. A man well ahead of his time in that he was a liberal,champion for the poor and women alike.You shall love your neighbor as yourself mentality,That I fully agree with.

 

Ed shares much with around a third of American Christians in his belief that god used billions of years to tweak evolution into making man along with every other living thing. Why would a super being care about that if the person is a good loving caring human?

I don't see why it is such a big deal.

 

 



Steve Belttari said:

     I used to have a business partner who was this gadfly-debater type, when I first met Ed he told me that Christians were terrible at defending doctrine in debates.  My response was that it was not God's will to be debating with people about spiritual things.  His position was Paul debating with the Atheneian philosophers in Acts 17, so I said fair enough.  I have to admit that debating with Ed all the time when I was his partner did help me to defend the truths of scripture better.  Even though Ed said that he was a Christian, I don't think that he had saving faith in Jesus Christ, because he doesn't believe that Jesus Christ was and is God.  He also believes that God created man through the evolutionary process.  At one time Ed might have been saved but was "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive".  Even though God used my experience with Ed to help improve my faith, I do think that he was contaminated by being a gadfly-debater.  So I think that we have to be careful with these type of discussions.   Don't know what to make of me?   I met the Collier brothers on Libertarian Liberty Districts, Bill connected me with Kingdom Insight, so I'm into politics, economics, history etc...I am also a prophet in the Body of Christ.  As much as I fall short of God's glory, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, so the Lord is telling me in His Word(1 Tim 4 vs 14) not to neglect the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prohecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.   Kind of interesting how life works out sometimes, I'm living in the exact same apartment that I lived in 1988 when I received the gift of prophecy.  Much has happened since then, its like the Lord is trying to put me back on track after my wanderings in life.      
Lisa said:

  And since I am on here once a day at best I'll leave a general comment to all of you.  

Mark, thanks for praying about the computer.  I think one may be on the way.  My father is thinking of getting a new system.  When he does I'll get one of the older systems.   If that is not all that I want,  I may be able to upgrade with some parts I have in the backroom.  Time will tell.   The parts aren't compatible with the motherboard in this system.  Thanks for sharing the links.  I plan to look at them eventually.  At the momment I need to finish this and make a security walk before other commitments tie up my time.

   James, I enjoy that you challenge our positions and understanding.   Thanks for toning down the confrontation. 

  Steve, I honestly can't figure out how to take you, but I do enjoy seeing your comments. 

 

I think Mark is right when he says that this debate does little more than entertain our obviously intelectual minds.   When I checked out the squirrel and the bird I was making the quickest of comparisons.  Maybe I would change my mind with more study but I doubt it.   By the way I have been known to be very content doing some rather scientific activities.  Nice try at getting me mad, James, but that isn't what this is about. 

Had a rather interesting day where I once again showed my human side while listening to Mrs. Pastor.   God must be trying to do something with one or both of us as much as we but heads.   I shall go see if I can act more like my faith teaches that I should. 

Hope that you fellows have had a great day. 

 

 

Steve, thanks for sharing a little about yourself.  The Lord has a way of working in our lives, even when we sort of quit trying.   I think you and Mark have both hit on why this website has changed so much.  The Christians who don't like to debate (which is most) all quit commenting.  That leaves only atheists debating Christrians.   I miss the way it was. Then Christrians could share things with each other and maybe work out things they needed help with.  I think by stepping back we have allowed this site to become the one sided thing it is now.  

Mark, I'll miss seeing your comments.  If you happen back by, could you maybe start something that is more Christian to Christian.  I intend to think about coming up with something to do the same.   James you are free to look in or maybe comment too. 

There are a lot of nice people out there who aren't Christian.  By now you have seen enough of my world view to know why I think that is a problem.  There are also Christians that need so much work that they are very hard to work with or serve under.  That is a problem too.  It doesn't help others be all that open to learning more about the faith. 

Hi Lisa.

I really didn't go anywhere. I have "disciple Peter" moments. As soon as I signed off, I was listening to Joyce Meyer and she said, "God didn't teach you and invest all that work in you for you to live in a comfortable cocoon." So while I love to ponder the Lord's mysteries, to me, they are just icing on the cake.

I like your views on the important things of being a Christian. There are some people that work with me that haven't been the easiest to work with in the past. I have prayed and fasted over the last year and went the extra mile to set an example of how much better everyone's day is when we smile and are cheerful, the work becomes an adventure.

Yesterday a coworker called me and ask if I would help him in a student dorm. The room was hot, the fan quit and the control circuit looked like a rat's nest. He was at wit's end. Someone had modified it to work years ago to work without an aquastat and was using the fan to control the room temp.

Me and my buddy started talking and I straightened out the wiring and when we left, we were both in a good mood. The reason? Before I left the house, I ask the Lord to go with me, to help our team, to save the kids and the Professors and etc. "God is like a cell phone. Before, I didn't know I needed Him. But now, how did I ever live without Him?"

I agree, I believe there are a whole lot of wonderful people at Kingdom Insight. If we would just stop in and say hi. We don't have to have something to debate, just how things went today or someone to pray for or anything.

But God is good. He hears Jaunita's and everyone else's prayers for Kingdom Insight. He's working on something. I am my least favorite subject. The Lord is my most favorite subject.

Thanks Lisa,

Mark

Ah.... I see even the fellows can change their minds.  I am sure you are a blessing on your job.  I suspect you also stick your neck out far enough be faced with some tough situations.   Started a new discussion geared toward Christians.  Feel free to leave your two cents...given inflation is that quarters now?

Hi Lisa,

I did leave my two cents. :-)) We each have characterisics we are working on. My dad used to say, "I know each one of my sons, their likes, dislikes, good points and not so good points." In some areas, my growth as a Christian has been so fast, but in some areas, it has been soooo sloooow.

I know when self gets in the way. I say, "Lord, I did it again." When we post in a blog, like my little Website, we just put it out there for anyone interested. But we learn and grow far more in the trenches. I'm glad my password is still active. :-)) [Thanks Juanita.]

I feel much better tonight than I did last night. :-))

Mark

Seems either folks believe in Creationism or Evolution... I believe in neither.  The Bible when it says "6000 years" meant A LONG TIME - remember folks they didn't have arabic numbers nor mathematics like we have today.  Evolution is a false theory which is easily disproven through scientific means and the reasons they hang on to it, are two.  1. As Francis Collins, MD says (he's a Christian scientist), if they dropped evolution the whole medical research info-structure would fall apart because all medical research (with rat studies etc) is assuming that through "evolution", we are somewhat related to rats thus a rat study will say something about humans (which as we found with numerous medications isn't necessarily true).  And 2. Evolution has the advantage of cutting God out of the equation and that appeals to the atheists.  Another possible reason they hang on to it is that it's easy to teach in the schools.  The theory of evolution originated with the ancient Greeks (real modern science--NOT) and it's simplistic.  Try teach "Intelligent Design" to the kids when the explanations for it are complex astrophysics stuff etc.  i.e. would have problems getting THE TEACHERS to understand "Intelligent Design". :/  But fact remains, the Bible is truer than evolution -because the proofs (and there ARE proofs!) of "Intelligent Design" point to the need FOR a Creator (which is why the atheistic scientists are so fighting it and they refuse to acknowledge that "Intelligent Design" is NOT Biblical Creationism (which used the Babylonian theory of how things were created by the way).  Even when I cite the astrophysics proofs for Intelligent Design, many will not listen to me and insist on "believing" in evolution but of course, really studying evolution, one is shocked by the huge gaps in the theory... I came to a disbelief in evolution through studying it in scientific journals.  :)  Today we have Phillip Johnson's excellent book, "DARWIN ON TRIAL" a must read!  I have some articles on both evolution and the many disproofs of it and also Intelligent Design - here's the link: http://net-abbey.org/evolutn.htm

Hi Sue,

Thanks for the weigh in. I too, am a Christian and believe the evidence for Intelligent Design is irrefutable. Philip Johnson is a Professor in Law isn't he? His book is awesome. I approach it from an expansion of Communication Exposition called The Science of Context. God's ingenuity is awesome, huh?

I think you hit upon the purpose of the evolution narrative; if they can convince me God doesn't exist, I have no one to call on when our unseen enemy causes me to lose focus and then pounds me in the dirt. But what Satan really does is keep me on my knees. :-))

Thanks so much, Sue,

Mark

 Sue I really would like to see where you got that Francis Collins about rats and evolution in medical research.

 I have read much  of his work. Never hear him not agree with evolution 100%.

 

 I quote him from his book. 

As someone who's had the privilege of leading the human genome project, I've had the opportunity to study our own DNA instruction book at a level of detail that was never really possible before.

It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming.

I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that.

 I believe God used the mechanism of evolution to achieve that goal. And while that may seem to us who are limited by this axis of time as a very long, drawn-out process, it wasn't long and drawn-out to God. And it wasn't random to God.


Francis Collins even started a web site over this troubleing problem with the faithful and science.

http://www.biologos.org/ Its mission statement is "The BioLogos Foundation explores, promotes and celebrates the integration of science and Christian faith.

Please take some time to check it out.





SueW said:

Seems either folks believe in Creationism or Evolution... I believe in neither.  The Bible when it says "6000 years" meant A LONG TIME - remember folks they didn't have arabic numbers nor mathematics like we have today.  Evolution is a false theory which is easily disproven through scientific means and the reasons they hang on to it, are two.  1. As Francis Collins, MD says (he's a Christian scientist), if they dropped evolution the whole medical research info-structure would fall apart because all medical research (with rat studies etc) is assuming that through "evolution", we are somewhat related to rats thus a rat study will say something about humans (which as we found with numerous medications isn't necessarily true).  And 2. Evolution has the advantage of cutting God out of the equation and that appeals to the atheists.  Another possible reason they hang on to it is that it's easy to teach in the schools.  The theory of evolution originated with the ancient Greeks (real modern science--NOT) and it's simplistic.  Try teach "Intelligent Design" to the kids when the explanations for it are complex astrophysics stuff etc.  i.e. would have problems getting THE TEACHERS to understand "Intelligent Design". :/  But fact remains, the Bible is truer than evolution -because the proofs (and there ARE proofs!) of "Intelligent Design" point to the need FOR a Creator (which is why the atheistic scientists are so fighting it and they refuse to acknowledge that "Intelligent Design" is NOT Biblical Creationism (which used the Babylonian theory of how things were created by the way).  Even when I cite the astrophysics proofs for Intelligent Design, many will not listen to me and insist on "believing" in evolution but of course, really studying evolution, one is shocked by the huge gaps in the theory... I came to a disbelief in evolution through studying it in scientific journals.  :)  Today we have Phillip Johnson's excellent book, "DARWIN ON TRIAL" a must read!  I have some articles on both evolution and the many disproofs of it and also Intelligent Design - here's the link: http://net-abbey.org/evolutn.htm

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