A friend of ours is a minister. He had a most unfortunate experience. He was asked to leave his church.
Now, every day Pastors are asked to leave. Sometimes for good reason.
In the case of my friend... I would like to say a few things.
First, he believes in Jesus Christ as both his Lord and Savior.
Second, he believes that is is critically important that his life honor God.
Third, he believes that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.
It is for point number three that he was asked to leave his church. The leaders at his church did not believe the Bible to be God's inpired word. Just before they met to decide rather to keep my friend as Pastor, he was given one last chance. He was asked, "Do you believe the Bible is actually God's word." My friend replied, "Yes". The man who asked sadly shook his head and replied, "I really liked you. And, you seem so educated and intelligent.... It is a shame." Then he joined with the others and voted him out of the church.
I think that this is the most dangerous of churches. What do you think we should do about it?
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Somewhere in the bible it says to brush off the dirt and move on and I would say that it applies in this case. I would not feel bad for being asked to leave those people, sounds like Jerry Wrong to me! ( you know Jerimiah Wright, I call him Jerry Wrong)
Jan,
My friend told me that there are seminaries that teach the Bible is a bunch of Myths. He said they train their graduates how to not let on to their 'older' members what they believe, while at the same time how to train their younger members into a new, more modern way to worship -- based on not believing the Bible!!!
Unfortunately I have reason to believe that a church would do this to a Pastor. Assuming all is as it appears with this Pastor, the problem is with the faith or lack of faith of the people. Someone mentioned that in the independent nondenominational churches they have been to it is nearly impossible to remove the Pastor. That depends on the Church. I attended one with a church board that could and would vote to remove a Pastor. They did it a number of times. There were those in leadership who wanted to be in control. When things didn't go their way, they worked to remove the Pastor. Bringing in a number of youth and /or failing to attend someone's gathering were reasons for offense. Solution. Quit attending that church. Preferably find a new church to attend. Some just stopped attending until a new Pastor came in and then tried it again for a while. This church eventually split itself out of existence.
I now attended a non-denominational where the Pastor founded the church. I doubt any will ever try to vote him out but who knows. Mostly people just get upset and leave. Not sure that is any better but at least the Pastor has the freedom to speak the word. I think when we as members become upset with a Pastor, it is time to look to ourselve and see what wrong attitudes we are harboring. Assuming the Pastor is following and teaching the word, the problem is with us. It is easy realize that our problem with the leadership is our own wrong attitudes. We then need to repent. I agree with Sarah that we need to work to not gossip and spread our displeasure with the Pastor. As much as I would like to be otherwise, he is human and he won't get it right all of the time. He needs undestanding and patience as much as I do. If he upsets you about something go to him and try to work it out. I'm preaching to myself again.
Dave I do believe we are seeing that running to and fro with a hunger and thirst for God's word and not finding it.
Over the last few years books (yes some of them very good books) taking the place of the bible. The bibles may be on the tables but are referred to less often than contemporary works. Sometimes this even happens from the pulpit. We know that the word doesn't lack power and authority so why is it that when it is "read" that lives are not being changed? Perhaps we have become dulled or easily distracted and not allowing the Word to do the work of God in us. I just finished reading "The Heavenly Man" ...in it he said that he was often questioned why in china the see signs and wonders and here in the west..not so much...his response was in china the seek the Lord Jesus and His Word-they don't seek the signs and wonders...but as you are doing the work that the Lord called you to do signs and wonders will follow...point being don't follow signs and wonders follow Jesus and the signs and wonders will follow you...of course it was written much more eloquent than I just did here....
I believe that repentance proceeds revival and although many of us quote 11 Chronicles 7:14 few of us are at that point of repentance (this is my point of view -from my small part of the world...) I keep looking for leadership to lead the way...a lot ofwhy aren't they in the Word of God, why aren't the teaching...why aren't they praying...why aren't the....
The Lord spoke to my heart- WHY AREN'T YOU? God gave us His Word and His Holy Spirit...we don't need to wait for anyone else to teach us...when they do what a blessing but in the absence of that kind of teaching we are still called to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Laziness has set in and I for one have been too dependent on anointed teachers and leaders...they encourage you to grow alongside them so while your digging in the word for yourself - you always had the opportunity to share what little you learned and the teachers inspired you to dig even deeper...but God called us to have a relationship with Him and be dependent on Him...perhaps the anointing is no longer on some ministries because our God is a jealous God.
Pastors and teaches have a huge responsibility they are accountable for their flock...when we just sit there year after year being filled but not poured out...not growing to walk beside them and be true helpmates...we increase the burden of the pastor and burn them out...we are called to be the body of Christ all doing our part...
How tragic. I believe each day, Christianity in America is becoming more and more watered down into a convenient "thing" that fits into our convenient, comfortable lifestyle. We need to remember that OUR enemy, the devil, is actively prowling around seeking who he can devour. That isn't something to take lightly.
I think it's good for each person to ask ourselves - are we living our life totally consistent with God's Word? Are there gaps in our own lives that we aren't doing anything about? (Please note, I am NOT writing any of this with implications toward the pastor - my heart breaks for what has happened to him.) But I do believe that as Christians, we need to be completely aligned with God's Word and I can hope that through that, we can start to create revival in our community.
I read an interesting article yesterday about the Bible being the INspired Word of God that I think is a very good way of looking at it. Think about this:
"Think about the above realities: 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents. What’s more, this collection of books shares a common storyline- the creation, fall, and redemption of God’s people; a common theme- God’s universal love for all of humanity; and a common message- salvation is available to all who repent of their sins and commit to following God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength. In addition to sharing these commonalities, these 66 books contain no historical errors or contradictions. God’s word truly is an amazing collection of writings!
After I had shared the above facts with this student, I offered him the following challenge: I said to him, “If you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, if you do not believe that the Bible is of a supernatural origin, than I challenge you to a test.” I said to the student, “I challenge you to go to any library in the world, you can choose any library you like, and find 66 books which match the characteristics of the 66 books in the Bible. You must choose 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, written on 3 different continents. However, they must share a common storyline, a common theme, and a common message, with no historical errors or contradictions.” I went on to say, “If you can produce such a collection of books, I will admit that the Bible is not the inspired word of God.” The student’s reply was almost instantaneous, he emphatically stated, “But that’s impossible!”
“But that’s impossible!” It truly is impossible, for any collection of human writings. However, the Bible passes this test. The Bible contains 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, with no historical errors or contradictions. The entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, bears the mark of Divine inspiration." (http://www.christianministriesintl.org/articles/05.html)
Juanita, I applaud your pastor friend for "having done all, stand" and "quitting you like men." I just hope he recovers from the rejection and hurt quickly and completely. I pray he "shakes the dust off his sandals" when leaving that "city" and praises the Lord for having suffered for His Name. I pray the Holy Spirit leads him to a "city" that has been plowed and made receptive for hearing the Words of the Lord. I believe the Bible are the Words of God and Words of Life and Words of Truth so much so, that if they were somehow released from off the page, they would immediately form Jesus Himself (John 1:1). God's Words will place every person at the end of the ages in one of the two following categories: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (John 20:31). "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48). Since I just made reference to three verses in John concerning the Words of God, do you suppose your pastor friend's church ripped out the book of John? How about John 6:63-64: "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not." I say we pray fervently for this church because of Amos 8:11-12: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it."
this sounds like something out of This Present Darkness.
Doesn't the congregation have a vote? What was the foundation of this church? Did it begin as a church that believed the bible to be the inspired word of God? Juanita I am stunned! I be interested in knowing more about the church. Is this a drastic change for them, incremental or they were never a bible believing church. I am tempted to believe they never believed the bible to be the word of God. But so much has crept into the hearts and minds of the body of Christ that we need to be ever vigilant of the wiles of the enemy indeed. I will certainly pray for your friend and his former church. Even those of us who say that we believe that the bible is the inspired word of God - do we live as if we believe it? I must confess that my life often does not line up with what I believe to be true. Small compromise can often lead to even bigger compromises. What is that the Lord would say of us- they worship me with the lips but their hearts are far from me? Are we not only hearers of the word but doers of the word? Will we hear the Lord say well done my good and faithful servant.
I guess my response is to heed the warning that while one church may say they don't believe the bible to be the inspired word of God - there are also churches who profess the bible to be the inspired word of God and yet their hearts are far from God...both are wrong...but the church that denies the truth I would know to walk away...the church that professes to believe the Word of God and yet do not submit to its authority in their lives..sometimes that is a little harder to discern...So for me the more dangerous church would be the one that acknowledges the bible with their words but deny it with their heart
Juanita,how could they just vote him out? Every church I've attended has been an independent church...not a part of a denomination...ie Southern Baptist. It has always seemed to me next to impossible to get a pastor to leave..unless he chose to or unless he commited some serious sin that would reflect badly on Christ.
I agree it is a VERY dangerous church....I don't know that I'd care to even call it a church.
You asked "What do you think we should do about it?" Do mean this particular Pastor's ousting or these dangerous "churches"?
Replies
My friend told me that there are seminaries that teach the Bible is a bunch of Myths. He said they train their graduates how to not let on to their 'older' members what they believe, while at the same time how to train their younger members into a new, more modern way to worship -- based on not believing the Bible!!!
Jan said:
I now attended a non-denominational where the Pastor founded the church. I doubt any will ever try to vote him out but who knows. Mostly people just get upset and leave. Not sure that is any better but at least the Pastor has the freedom to speak the word. I think when we as members become upset with a Pastor, it is time to look to ourselve and see what wrong attitudes we are harboring. Assuming the Pastor is following and teaching the word, the problem is with us. It is easy realize that our problem with the leadership is our own wrong attitudes. We then need to repent. I agree with Sarah that we need to work to not gossip and spread our displeasure with the Pastor. As much as I would like to be otherwise, he is human and he won't get it right all of the time. He needs undestanding and patience as much as I do. If he upsets you about something go to him and try to work it out. I'm preaching to myself again.
Over the last few years books (yes some of them very good books) taking the place of the bible. The bibles may be on the tables but are referred to less often than contemporary works. Sometimes this even happens from the pulpit. We know that the word doesn't lack power and authority so why is it that when it is "read" that lives are not being changed? Perhaps we have become dulled or easily distracted and not allowing the Word to do the work of God in us. I just finished reading "The Heavenly Man" ...in it he said that he was often questioned why in china the see signs and wonders and here in the west..not so much...his response was in china the seek the Lord Jesus and His Word-they don't seek the signs and wonders...but as you are doing the work that the Lord called you to do signs and wonders will follow...point being don't follow signs and wonders follow Jesus and the signs and wonders will follow you...of course it was written much more eloquent than I just did here....
I believe that repentance proceeds revival and although many of us quote 11 Chronicles 7:14 few of us are at that point of repentance (this is my point of view -from my small part of the world...) I keep looking for leadership to lead the way...a lot ofwhy aren't they in the Word of God, why aren't the teaching...why aren't they praying...why aren't the....
The Lord spoke to my heart- WHY AREN'T YOU? God gave us His Word and His Holy Spirit...we don't need to wait for anyone else to teach us...when they do what a blessing but in the absence of that kind of teaching we are still called to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Laziness has set in and I for one have been too dependent on anointed teachers and leaders...they encourage you to grow alongside them so while your digging in the word for yourself - you always had the opportunity to share what little you learned and the teachers inspired you to dig even deeper...but God called us to have a relationship with Him and be dependent on Him...perhaps the anointing is no longer on some ministries because our God is a jealous God.
Pastors and teaches have a huge responsibility they are accountable for their flock...when we just sit there year after year being filled but not poured out...not growing to walk beside them and be true helpmates...we increase the burden of the pastor and burn them out...we are called to be the body of Christ all doing our part...
I think it's good for each person to ask ourselves - are we living our life totally consistent with God's Word? Are there gaps in our own lives that we aren't doing anything about? (Please note, I am NOT writing any of this with implications toward the pastor - my heart breaks for what has happened to him.) But I do believe that as Christians, we need to be completely aligned with God's Word and I can hope that through that, we can start to create revival in our community.
I read an interesting article yesterday about the Bible being the INspired Word of God that I think is a very good way of looking at it. Think about this:
"Think about the above realities: 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents. What’s more, this collection of books shares a common storyline- the creation, fall, and redemption of God’s people; a common theme- God’s universal love for all of humanity; and a common message- salvation is available to all who repent of their sins and commit to following God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength. In addition to sharing these commonalities, these 66 books contain no historical errors or contradictions. God’s word truly is an amazing collection of writings!
After I had shared the above facts with this student, I offered him the following challenge: I said to him, “If you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, if you do not believe that the Bible is of a supernatural origin, than I challenge you to a test.” I said to the student, “I challenge you to go to any library in the world, you can choose any library you like, and find 66 books which match the characteristics of the 66 books in the Bible. You must choose 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, written on 3 different continents. However, they must share a common storyline, a common theme, and a common message, with no historical errors or contradictions.” I went on to say, “If you can produce such a collection of books, I will admit that the Bible is not the inspired word of God.” The student’s reply was almost instantaneous, he emphatically stated, “But that’s impossible!”
“But that’s impossible!” It truly is impossible, for any collection of human writings. However, the Bible passes this test. The Bible contains 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, with no historical errors or contradictions. The entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, bears the mark of Divine inspiration." (http://www.christianministriesintl.org/articles/05.html)
Pretty awesome, huh?!
Doesn't the congregation have a vote? What was the foundation of this church? Did it begin as a church that believed the bible to be the inspired word of God? Juanita I am stunned! I be interested in knowing more about the church. Is this a drastic change for them, incremental or they were never a bible believing church. I am tempted to believe they never believed the bible to be the word of God. But so much has crept into the hearts and minds of the body of Christ that we need to be ever vigilant of the wiles of the enemy indeed. I will certainly pray for your friend and his former church. Even those of us who say that we believe that the bible is the inspired word of God - do we live as if we believe it? I must confess that my life often does not line up with what I believe to be true. Small compromise can often lead to even bigger compromises. What is that the Lord would say of us- they worship me with the lips but their hearts are far from me? Are we not only hearers of the word but doers of the word? Will we hear the Lord say well done my good and faithful servant.
I guess my response is to heed the warning that while one church may say they don't believe the bible to be the inspired word of God - there are also churches who profess the bible to be the inspired word of God and yet their hearts are far from God...both are wrong...but the church that denies the truth I would know to walk away...the church that professes to believe the Word of God and yet do not submit to its authority in their lives..sometimes that is a little harder to discern...So for me the more dangerous church would be the one that acknowledges the bible with their words but deny it with their heart
I agree it is a VERY dangerous church....I don't know that I'd care to even call it a church.
You asked "What do you think we should do about it?" Do mean this particular Pastor's ousting or these dangerous "churches"?