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I have been ponders what qualities make up a good church.  I am refering here to the congregation one joins with on Sunday morning. 

What qualities do you look for?

Is it the character of the leadership?  How they handle their authority?

The prescence or abscence of bible based preaching?  New Testament only...or both Testaments.

The freindliness of the people and how they treat each other and the pastors?

The denomination or maybe even lack of denomination...oversight by a board or elders?  Who do the Pastors anwer too, if anyone?

The style/length of the song service if there is one?

Baptism of Holy Spirit and other languages...views on the gifts of the spirit... prophetc words.

( I know this last one could be touchy.  I am not trying to start a doctrinal debate...so please refrain and put those comments in a different discussion if you feel you must go there.)

Which of these qualities do you find important in a church?  Why?

 

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Maybe your perfect church is traditional. Piano, organ and the chorus. Maybe a guitar or flute for special events. The congregation mumbles it's way through three or four hyms, skipping evey other verse but always singing the last one. The church may still have hard uncomfortable pews for seats...or maybe it is in transition with a full complement of pews and soft chairs. Expressive worship would horrify everyone from the Pastor to the babe in arms. THe message is a half hour at most... though the preachins is still sound and Bible based. There may even be a more thorough look at scripture than in the contemporary church mentioned above. THere are several Bible studies, a youth group and Sunday school groups for all ages. The church is led by a board with several commitees. Is this church really any better or worse than the other one. Is it just different?

There are a few Christian denominations that do NOT allow musical instruments in worship.The Church of Christ is one of them I am aware of that does this.

 

 

A few still preach that music is sinful (in any form other than vocal) ....So is dancing.....think of the movie "Footloose".

They missed the Old Testament book that records David dancing and praising the Lord before the Ark of the Covenant as it was returned to Jerusalem.  At that time the Ark contained the prescence of the Lord.  He danced so much his outer clothes came off and his wife Micheal was upset with and likely embarassed by him.  His response has been turned into a modern chorus.  "I can be yet more undignified than this."  They also skipped Psalm 149:3  "Praise His name with dancingand make music to Him with tambourine and harp." NIV.

 

I understand things like the no dancing standard.  Problem is these folks associate music and dancing only with what they see as the sinful behaviors that result when guys and gals get tog. like that.   Viewed this way it can only be bad.  Viewed as a way to honor, acknowledge, and celebrate ones love for the Lord it can have good qualities. 

James, I'm still curious what your ideal "church" would be like should you suddenly become mental and darken it's doors.

Maybe it's the church with this attitude;

Phil 2:1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

 

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-

even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

 Hello Lisa,

 

The only reason I brought it up was because I thought it neat. IMO there is no right way or wrong way to be religious.Minus forcing it on others or killing them for not believing it your way. Weather it be in a mega church or a mother reading the Bible or any other holy book to her kids to a primitive people living in a jungle, faith in God/Gods helps people cope with life.Thats a good thing. 

 

Mega churches learned to make church services entertaining.What better way then to use high tech toys? I do find it amusing that many will use the latest  technology while telling the masses not to believe a large part of science. Evolution, globe warming,age of the earth and vaccination in children. 

 

Its mind boggling to think about. Many want all abortions made illegal but won't cover very sick babies with medical insurance.In many states  it is still legal to faith heal your children to death.Protect the unborn but after that ----- them.  I don't get it.

 

  IMO kind of a dark way of asking,Okay fair enough. My ideal church would be a meeting place where,science was left to scientist and politics were left to politicians. A church should  teach people to love thy neighbor. A place to help people that are hurting but also a place to share the good things in life. I don't think a church with 10,000 members can do either.  A church should be like a big family, where everyone knows everyone else where all can feel as they belong.

 


Lisa said:

They missed the Old Testament book that records David dancing and praising the Lord before the Ark of the Covenant as it was returned to Jerusalem.  At that time the Ark contained the prescence of the Lord.  He danced so much his outer clothes came off and his wife Micheal was upset with and likely embarassed by him.  His response has been turned into a modern chorus.  "I can be yet more undignified than this."  They also skipped Psalm 149:3  "Praise His name with dancingand make music to Him with tambourine and harp." NIV.

 

I understand things like the no dancing standard.  Problem is these folks associate music and dancing only with what they see as the sinful behaviors that result when guys and gals get tog. like that.   Viewed this way it can only be bad.  Viewed as a way to honor, acknowledge, and celebrate ones love for the Lord it can have good qualities. 

James, I'm still curious what your ideal "church" would be like should you suddenly become mental and darken it's doors.

Pastor Jelliff thanks.  I am wondering if the worship style at your church is contemporary.  Thinking about hopping some hills, over the rivers and through some woods... someday.  

 

James, I have a tendency to come across a more negative than I should.  The Lord is still working on me.  Thanks for your answer!   I think you make more sense than you realize when you describe an ideal church or even good ways to do spiritual teaching.  You are so right that there misled Christians or those with poor understanding who do apparently foolish things.  On some of your points some would argue that their a problems with the existing science and things believed may not be as true as we think.  Others may be basing their actions on bad or poorly designed studies that were somehow grabbed by the mainstream. 

 

 

Hi Lisa,

I am watching Fred Price. His sermon today is so awesome. It is, "Thoughts, Ideas and Suggestions."  It could aptly be subtitled, "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, The Battle of the Mind and When we are tested, it is usually by being tempted."

One of his statements was, "The Lord is not trying to control our thoughts or He would have made us autonomic. He's warning us of the pitfalls that will steal our joy, kill our purpose and destroy our future."

The Scripture verses he used are, Romans 10:17, Ephesians 6:11-18, 2 Cor 10:5, Phillipians 4:5-8 and 1 Cor 2:14.

My idea of the Ideal Church is one that feeds my spirit and helps me to grow so that I bring Glory to His Name and Not have run around the mountain so much. For me, the rest is icing on the cake.

I like Fred Price and I know he is one of those that cause a lot of debate, but he feeds my soul and I leave the rest to the Lord.

I hadn't posted here and I wasn't sure what to post that would be a positive addition.

Have a great day!

Mark

 

 

 

 

 Hey Lisa,

 No worries, I am guilt of the same thing. We are only human.I was not offended. I figured you would not care to much for your wording when you came back later and read them. I have found in my years of doing this that these forums can bring out the worse in people. It makes sense, we are both passionate in our feeling in these matters.  It seems that no one is listening so people think that if they use stronger words they can slap the other side awake and make them see the light,(so to speak).

 

 Science does not have all the answers maybe we never will. No dough the theory of evolution will change. Thats the way science is designed to work. Still the earth is very old. Matterhorn mountain proves this without any of the so called problems of age dating using  "radiometric dating ".

The strongest thing going for evolution is that the deeper one digs the simpler life forms get.Thats going to be a hard one to get past for the creation group.

 

I wonder why the theory of plate tectonics is not being attacked by the religious right. It would be funny if not so serious.  78 percent of Americans adult support the theory of Plate tectonics but nearly half believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old. 

 

 I guess what I am saying is the the general public don't know enough about evolution to say it is wrong.  

 

 

 Now take child vaccination,the vaccination rates are  down and childhood illnesses that were all but wiped out  by vaccinations are making big comebacks. 

 

This lady almost lost her baby because neighbor did not believe in vaccination of her children. Breaks my heart to watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3akJVesMdvs&feature=related

 


Lisa said:

Pastor Jelliff thanks.  I am wondering if the worship style at your church is contemporary.  Thinking about hopping some hills, over the rivers and through some woods... someday.  

 

James, I have a tendency to come across a more negative than I should.  The Lord is still working on me.  Thanks for your answer!   I think you make more sense than you realize when you describe an ideal church or even good ways to do spiritual teaching.  You are so right that there misled Christians or those with poor understanding who do apparently foolish things.  On some of your points some would argue that their a problems with the existing science and things believed may not be as true as we think.  Others may be basing their actions on bad or poorly designed studies that were somehow grabbed by the mainstream. 

 

 

James,

   Thanks for accepting my apology.  Sometimes humans need to be slapped/startled awake but I usually reserve that for off forum relations.  I also figured that a commited atheist might need to be in an out of it mental state to spend much time in a church.   On the other hand someone like myself would have to be a bit out of it to spend much time at coven meetings.

Unfortunately, you are right that most people  do not understand science well enough to hold so tightly to their arguments.  Maybe some atheists fit the description.  I find you understand more than most.  

   The vacination story is indeed sad.   I think that folks who believe vaccines are unsafe because of included chemicals would be smarter to push for a redesign of the vaccine that uses safer components. 

Why are we talking about plate tectonics, vaccinations and evolution here?  These belong over in unmoderated land?

Have a great week Sir.

 

"The Gospel!"  This is the best two word, first impression assessment of a church that I have ever heard.

 Lisa, Your welcome even tho I did not see that you did any thing that was wrong per say.it was just not very Christian like,it was very human. 

 

 LOL, I bet your more right then you know on atheist needing to leave that " atheist mind set" out of our brain from time to time. I do it not only at church but also with relatives. I only go to church when visiting with relatives,going to funerals or weddings. When visiting relatives  I will even give grace at dinner when asked if I would like to do it. I'll make one up in advance so I will be ready when asked. 

 

 On talking about plate tectonics, vaccinations and evolution here. Your right,OOPS MY BAD. I will try to watch that.

Lisa said:

James,

   Thanks for accepting my apology.  Sometimes humans need to be slapped/startled awake but I usually reserve that for off forum relations.  I also figured that a commited atheist might need to be in an out of it mental state to spend much time in a church.   On the other hand someone like myself would have to be a bit out of it to spend much time at coven meetings.

Unfortunately, you are right that most people  do not understand science well enough to hold so tightly to their arguments.  Maybe some atheists fit the description.  I find you understand more than most.  

   The vacination story is indeed sad.   I think that folks who believe vaccines are unsafe because of included chemicals would be smarter to push for a redesign of the vaccine that uses safer components. 

Why are we talking about plate tectonics, vaccinations and evolution here?  These belong over in unmoderated land?

Have a great week Sir.

 

     Rev. Jelliff,

     Selfish sinful human beings do everything out out of selfish ambition and vain conceit.  Even things that we would consider to be noble people do out of selfish ambition and vain conceit.  To be interested in the interests of someone else(unless you were to get something out of it) runs contrary to what the world is all about.  This is why the Ekklesia is the called out ones of God.  Even when the Church isn't doing that good of a job of reflecting Jesus Christ, its very mission gets people to think that God has a higher standard that we could never attain on our own.   

Rev. Ernie Jelliff said:

Maybe it's the church with this attitude;

Phil 2:1If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

 

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-

even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

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