KingdomInsight

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Is the Era changing?  Why? 

 

What does this mean to you and me?

 

What are the differences???

 

http://j.mp/KingdomEraBasics 

 

What is YOUR opinion?   Is there a change in Eras?  What will it look like?

 

 

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Hi Juanita,

I think the thing I like most about Kingdom focus is an awareness that time is short and we should maintain Kingdom priorites 24/7 in our approach to everything. As we grow, we realize there is a lost & dying world that needs what we got. To share when we can and where we can and contribute to those who can go places and do things we cannot. It brings God's purpose into focus instead of the little window we all tend to live in.

Thanks Juanita for another great thought provoking post,

Mark

I do believe that there is a shift taking place in the Body of Christ.  There is a sense of urgency in the atmosphere and the Kingdom Citizens are begining to take their places in all walks of society.  I also believe that their is counter attack from the enemy that is distracting many from the true meaning of God's Kingdom.  The focus of the Kingdom is not limited to wealth and financial prosperity (although included).  True Kingdom Citizens are manifesting victory in every area of their lives (spirit, soul, body, social, financial, vocational, etc.).  Let Zion arise and the King of Glory be exalted!

 

Tim  

Timothy!

 

I couldn't agree more!


Timothy D Lucas said:

I do believe that there is a shift taking place in the Body of Christ.  There is a sense of urgency in the atmosphere and the Kingdom Citizens are begining to take their places in all walks of society.  I also believe that their is counter attack from the enemy that is distracting many from the true meaning of God's Kingdom.  The focus of the Kingdom is not limited to wealth and financial prosperity (although included).  True Kingdom Citizens are manifesting victory in every area of their lives (spirit, soul, body, social, financial, vocational, etc.).  Let Zion arise and the King of Glory be exalted!

 

Tim  

     Doctrinally speaking, we are in the Church age until the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ, but I do believe that we are on the cusp of entering a  Millennial Kingdom era.  This summer I visited a Church in Monteagle, Tn called Mountain of God Tabernacle.  The Church is ministered to by professional musicians and they have a distinctive sounding music in their worship service,  they refer to it as Millennial Kingdom.  This is just one of many things that are happening in the Church, that indicate to me that we are entering into a new era. 

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
     The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

Juanita said:

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)

Very perceptive, Steve!

 

I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Belttari said:

The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

Juanita said:

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
     In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

Juanita said:

Very perceptive, Steve!

 

I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Belttari said:

The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

Juanita said:

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)

I think the problem, for SOME believers, is that they are choked to unfruitfulness.

 

However, I think it runs deeper.   Christians are NOT bearing fruit.   Period.   We're not even 'replacing ourselves'.   I think there is a DNA problem

             Things are NOT in the DNA that need to be there.

             Like fruitfulness, being a witness, living the cross.

 

             Other things are in the DNA that are NOT DNA stuff.  

             Like you can be a 'good Christian' if you come to church every Sunday and fellowship with the back of the heads of the people in the pews ahead of you.   How silly.   That is like saying you are a good worker if you show up and warm a seat.   Silly, silly. 

 

             It is a 'belief' problem.   A paradigm problem.

             And, it must change.

 

Steve Belttari said:

In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

Juanita said:

Very perceptive, Steve!

 

I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Belttari said:

The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

Juanita said:

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
     I mentioned my experience to bring up a point about giving.  The core of Christian discipleship is charity-love(1 Cor 13).  The early Church practiced charity outside of the bread and circus welfare system of the Roman empire.  So when the Roman empire disintegrated, because its citizens were no longer virtuous, Christians were already in a position to fill in the vacuum, because they were practicing charity on there own as individuals and collectively as a Church.  Before the American commercial became what it is now, Christians in America did practice charity like the early Church.  We need to get back to doing this, so when the American commercial empire crumbles apart, we will be able to fill in the vacuum.  We have a long way to go to prepare for the inevetible.  The last time I "attended" church, the pastor said that if a fellow Christian asks you for help you should not help them, but you should only help unbelievers.  He has it backwards.  We should try to help everyone, but the statement the pastor made reveals how much the state controls our lives.  The core of this error is the false statist-socialist belief that we have a right to food.  This ungodly belief creates atheism and irresponsibility.  It is easy to be irresponsible and to believe that God does not exist when I'm guaranteed free food.  There is a lot I could say about all of this, but the main thing to focus on is practicing charity outside of the sphere that the godless state has assigned to us. 

Juanita said:

I think the problem, for SOME believers, is that they are choked to unfruitfulness.

 

However, I think it runs deeper.   Christians are NOT bearing fruit.   Period.   We're not even 'replacing ourselves'.   I think there is a DNA problem

             Things are NOT in the DNA that need to be there.

             Like fruitfulness, being a witness, living the cross.

 

             Other things are in the DNA that are NOT DNA stuff.  

             Like you can be a 'good Christian' if you come to church every Sunday and fellowship with the back of the heads of the people in the pews ahead of you.   How silly.   That is like saying you are a good worker if you show up and warm a seat.   Silly, silly. 

 

             It is a 'belief' problem.   A paradigm problem.

             And, it must change.

 

Steve Belttari said:

In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

Juanita said:

Very perceptive, Steve!

 

I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Belttari said:

The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

Juanita said:

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)

     Since my previous post, I have been thinking of how I can shed some light on why Christians are being unfruitful.  The American Heritage dictionary defines deceive:  To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.  The unbeleiver is deceived into being greedy-idolatrous and thereby not inheriting the Kingdom of God.  The believer is deceived into not bearing fruit, there is a difference.  There are things that American Christians say and do that seem good on the surface, but when held up to the light of God's Word do not stand up.  One of the things that Christians are fond of saying is the big sacrifice that they are making for their children.  The Bible says that children are a blessing, so what is the big sacrifice that you are making?  Is it your job that you hate but maintain so that your children do not starve or freeze to death.  I think that is an honorable thing that you are doing, but I don't think that it is a sacrifice, because you would be working that job even if you did not have children; unless you are saying that your ambition in life was to be a beach bum, if that is the case, the only thing that I have to say to you is that you should have never got married and had children.  I think that this only applies to a small percentage of Christians.  What they really mean by sacrifice is that they have to save x amount of money to send their children to college.  So another word that exposes the folly of unfruitful Christians, is when they say they are raising their children the right way.  One does not raise children, one raises livestock.  The Bible says to "TRAIN' a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it".  If you do this, when your child is 18 years old he will have character and be able to think for himself and make a decision about school, work, career etc...  God will provide for him because he is doing His will so you will not have to make any sacrifices for him.  The parent who is making sacrifices for their children is the one with brainwashed brats who expect their parents to sacrifice for them so that they can continue in their atheist indoctrination.  Remember, to do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice and Jesus is the one and only sacrifice for sins, and sins my friends is our problem, not children.  

Steve Belttari said:

     I mentioned my experience to bring up a point about giving.  The core of Christian discipleship is charity-love(1 Cor 13).  The early Church practiced charity outside of the bread and circus welfare system of the Roman empire.  So when the Roman empire disintegrated, because its citizens were no longer virtuous, Christians were already in a position to fill in the vacuum, because they were practicing charity on there own as individuals and collectively as a Church.  Before the American commercial became what it is now, Christians in America did practice charity like the early Church.  We need to get back to doing this, so when the American commercial empire crumbles apart, we will be able to fill in the vacuum.  We have a long way to go to prepare for the inevetible.  The last time I "attended" church, the pastor said that if a fellow Christian asks you for help you should not help them, but you should only help unbelievers.  He has it backwards.  We should try to help everyone, but the statement the pastor made reveals how much the state controls our lives.  The core of this error is the false statist-socialist belief that we have a right to food.  This ungodly belief creates atheism and irresponsibility.  It is easy to be irresponsible and to believe that God does not exist when I'm guaranteed free food.  There is a lot I could say about all of this, but the main thing to focus on is practicing charity outside of the sphere that the godless state has assigned to us. 

Juanita said:

I think the problem, for SOME believers, is that they are choked to unfruitfulness.

 

However, I think it runs deeper.   Christians are NOT bearing fruit.   Period.   We're not even 'replacing ourselves'.   I think there is a DNA problem

             Things are NOT in the DNA that need to be there.

             Like fruitfulness, being a witness, living the cross.

 

             Other things are in the DNA that are NOT DNA stuff.  

             Like you can be a 'good Christian' if you come to church every Sunday and fellowship with the back of the heads of the people in the pews ahead of you.   How silly.   That is like saying you are a good worker if you show up and warm a seat.   Silly, silly. 

 

             It is a 'belief' problem.   A paradigm problem.

             And, it must change.

 

Steve Belttari said:

In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

Juanita said:

Very perceptive, Steve!

 

I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Belttari said:

The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

Juanita said:

Here are some thoughts for comparision

 

The current wineskin...
    The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
 
    At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
 
    One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
 
 
The new wineskin...
    The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
    The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
    The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
    If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
 
The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)

Wow - almost 2000 views on this powerpoint.   Thanks everyone!

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