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Changing Eras - from the Church Era to the Kingdom Era

Posted by Juanita on August 17, 2011 at 9:37am in Kingdom Insight Legacy Posts

Is the Era changing?  Why? 

 

What does this mean to you and me?

 

What are the differences???

 

http://j.mp/KingdomEraBasics 

 

What is YOUR opinion?   Is there a change in Eras?  What will it look like?

 

 

The Kingdom Way The Basics

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  • Sierra Nichole November 2, 2011 at 9:57am

    Something my Pastor said being Regional minded is the same as Kingdom minded. Kingdom minded just means thinking outside of JUST the church, but taking the Church into the World. Being Kingdom minded means using our gifts and talents outside of the 4 walls as well as inside. Jesus was Kingdom minded. Wasnt some big organizational thing, He just went around and did HIS thing and loved people and spoke truth everywhere and anywhere! And whats awesome is we can do the same thing!

    Key is tackling one spot at a time. Tackle the town. Tackle the county. Then the region. Then the State. Then the Country. Then 2 countries. The the world. :) I love how God works!

  • 1l2aqs5sjaq4f November 2, 2011 at 7:44am

    Church era to Kingdom era.....yes.   There is absolutely a shift happening....but here is what I see.  It is really simple....if it is complicated, and you need a PHD or lengthy explanations then it isn't the gospel.

    Here is what God is doing...

    He is correcting THE CHURCH, not making it obsolete...is the church broken? Yes!  Is THE CHURCH in God's blueprints until the end of time?  Absolutely!  What God is doing, is shifting our thinking and DOing..into BEing the kingdom.  THE CHURCH will always be THE CHURCH, but God just wants those in the church to realize that the KINGDOM is inside of them, for them to release.  Kingdom era just means that wisdom and revelation of all that you possess becuase of Christ is yours to share.  And when we get that...the church will begin to function properly again.  Let's not complicate it...the last season's and era's have been filled with crazy stuff that has distracted us from the simplicaity of Christ and all He did and all He has afforded us.  This new era is an era of grace...because to understand that the kingdom resides inside you...is to abide, and only comes through grace.  The church era...wants religon to rule and reign...the church era wants to rob people of their God given grace and to make it a system of hoops that need jumped through. Grace and kingdom living includes victory and freedom, and power.

     

    There is an army rising up...with understanding of their position in the kingdom and understanding of the fullness of the kingdom that resides inside them. They do not need ministries, or man-given positions, heirarchy or systems and theories..they will simply release the kingdom through gifts of the Spirit, signs and wonders following everywhere they go. The kingdom era can already be seen in small pockets of people...but soon the church will be flipped upside down by the goodness of God.  

  • Juanita November 1, 2011 at 4:26am

    Wow - almost 2000 views on this powerpoint.   Thanks everyone!

  • Steve Belttari September 3, 2011 at 4:58am

         Since my previous post, I have been thinking of how I can shed some light on why Christians are being unfruitful.  The American Heritage dictionary defines deceive:  To cause to believe what is not true; mislead.  The unbeleiver is deceived into being greedy-idolatrous and thereby not inheriting the Kingdom of God.  The believer is deceived into not bearing fruit, there is a difference.  There are things that American Christians say and do that seem good on the surface, but when held up to the light of God's Word do not stand up.  One of the things that Christians are fond of saying is the big sacrifice that they are making for their children.  The Bible says that children are a blessing, so what is the big sacrifice that you are making?  Is it your job that you hate but maintain so that your children do not starve or freeze to death.  I think that is an honorable thing that you are doing, but I don't think that it is a sacrifice, because you would be working that job even if you did not have children; unless you are saying that your ambition in life was to be a beach bum, if that is the case, the only thing that I have to say to you is that you should have never got married and had children.  I think that this only applies to a small percentage of Christians.  What they really mean by sacrifice is that they have to save x amount of money to send their children to college.  So another word that exposes the folly of unfruitful Christians, is when they say they are raising their children the right way.  One does not raise children, one raises livestock.  The Bible says to "TRAIN' a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it".  If you do this, when your child is 18 years old he will have character and be able to think for himself and make a decision about school, work, career etc...  God will provide for him because he is doing His will so you will not have to make any sacrifices for him.  The parent who is making sacrifices for their children is the one with brainwashed brats who expect their parents to sacrifice for them so that they can continue in their atheist indoctrination.  Remember, to do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice and Jesus is the one and only sacrifice for sins, and sins my friends is our problem, not children.  

    Steve Belttari said:

         I mentioned my experience to bring up a point about giving.  The core of Christian discipleship is charity-love(1 Cor 13).  The early Church practiced charity outside of the bread and circus welfare system of the Roman empire.  So when the Roman empire disintegrated, because its citizens were no longer virtuous, Christians were already in a position to fill in the vacuum, because they were practicing charity on there own as individuals and collectively as a Church.  Before the American commercial became what it is now, Christians in America did practice charity like the early Church.  We need to get back to doing this, so when the American commercial empire crumbles apart, we will be able to fill in the vacuum.  We have a long way to go to prepare for the inevetible.  The last time I "attended" church, the pastor said that if a fellow Christian asks you for help you should not help them, but you should only help unbelievers.  He has it backwards.  We should try to help everyone, but the statement the pastor made reveals how much the state controls our lives.  The core of this error is the false statist-socialist belief that we have a right to food.  This ungodly belief creates atheism and irresponsibility.  It is easy to be irresponsible and to believe that God does not exist when I'm guaranteed free food.  There is a lot I could say about all of this, but the main thing to focus on is practicing charity outside of the sphere that the godless state has assigned to us. 

    Juanita said:

    I think the problem, for SOME believers, is that they are choked to unfruitfulness.

     

    However, I think it runs deeper.   Christians are NOT bearing fruit.   Period.   We're not even 'replacing ourselves'.   I think there is a DNA problem

                 Things are NOT in the DNA that need to be there.

                 Like fruitfulness, being a witness, living the cross.

     

                 Other things are in the DNA that are NOT DNA stuff.  

                 Like you can be a 'good Christian' if you come to church every Sunday and fellowship with the back of the heads of the people in the pews ahead of you.   How silly.   That is like saying you are a good worker if you show up and warm a seat.   Silly, silly. 

     

                 It is a 'belief' problem.   A paradigm problem.

                 And, it must change.

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

    Juanita said:

    Very perceptive, Steve!

     

    I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

    Juanita said:

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
  • Steve Belttari September 1, 2011 at 5:04am
         I mentioned my experience to bring up a point about giving.  The core of Christian discipleship is charity-love(1 Cor 13).  The early Church practiced charity outside of the bread and circus welfare system of the Roman empire.  So when the Roman empire disintegrated, because its citizens were no longer virtuous, Christians were already in a position to fill in the vacuum, because they were practicing charity on there own as individuals and collectively as a Church.  Before the American commercial became what it is now, Christians in America did practice charity like the early Church.  We need to get back to doing this, so when the American commercial empire crumbles apart, we will be able to fill in the vacuum.  We have a long way to go to prepare for the inevetible.  The last time I "attended" church, the pastor said that if a fellow Christian asks you for help you should not help them, but you should only help unbelievers.  He has it backwards.  We should try to help everyone, but the statement the pastor made reveals how much the state controls our lives.  The core of this error is the false statist-socialist belief that we have a right to food.  This ungodly belief creates atheism and irresponsibility.  It is easy to be irresponsible and to believe that God does not exist when I'm guaranteed free food.  There is a lot I could say about all of this, but the main thing to focus on is practicing charity outside of the sphere that the godless state has assigned to us. 

    Juanita said:

    I think the problem, for SOME believers, is that they are choked to unfruitfulness.

     

    However, I think it runs deeper.   Christians are NOT bearing fruit.   Period.   We're not even 'replacing ourselves'.   I think there is a DNA problem

                 Things are NOT in the DNA that need to be there.

                 Like fruitfulness, being a witness, living the cross.

     

                 Other things are in the DNA that are NOT DNA stuff.  

                 Like you can be a 'good Christian' if you come to church every Sunday and fellowship with the back of the heads of the people in the pews ahead of you.   How silly.   That is like saying you are a good worker if you show up and warm a seat.   Silly, silly. 

     

                 It is a 'belief' problem.   A paradigm problem.

                 And, it must change.

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

    Juanita said:

    Very perceptive, Steve!

     

    I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

    Juanita said:

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
  • Juanita August 31, 2011 at 8:30am

    I think the problem, for SOME believers, is that they are choked to unfruitfulness.

     

    However, I think it runs deeper.   Christians are NOT bearing fruit.   Period.   We're not even 'replacing ourselves'.   I think there is a DNA problem

                 Things are NOT in the DNA that need to be there.

                 Like fruitfulness, being a witness, living the cross.

     

                 Other things are in the DNA that are NOT DNA stuff.  

                 Like you can be a 'good Christian' if you come to church every Sunday and fellowship with the back of the heads of the people in the pews ahead of you.   How silly.   That is like saying you are a good worker if you show up and warm a seat.   Silly, silly. 

     

                 It is a 'belief' problem.   A paradigm problem.

                 And, it must change.

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

    Juanita said:

    Very perceptive, Steve!

     

    I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

    Juanita said:

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
  • Steve Belttari August 31, 2011 at 3:16am
         In the parable of the sower, Jesus taught that there were 4 different responses to God's Word.  I would say that the majority of American Christians are having the Word choked and are not bearing fruit, because of the cares of life and the deceitfulness of riches.  They probably don't see it that way, after all, God commands them to work, but are they really working according to the pattern taught in scripture.  That is, working for the basic necessities of life(food and clothing) and using anything in excess to help others.  Hardly, for if that was the case there would not be one homeless Christian in the USA.  Contrary to what some have been led  to believe, there are homeless Christians(1 John 3 vs 17).  Don't get me wrong, I've had enough experience with the homeless to know that they can be dangerous and using your property to help them would not be a wise thing to do.  However, one should be able to discern a brother in need.  In those instances in life where I found myself homeless, I chose to do business with the world, rather than put up with the nonsense that carnal Christians would of put me through.  My present living arrangement, a 3 bedroom home that I live in by myself doesn't cost me a penny, stems from one of these relationships with the world.  It would of been better for a Christian to bless me in this way.  Romans 12 vs 8 says "he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity".  The artificial non profit corporation that carnal Christians are ensnared by, makes giving a lot more complicated then it needs to be.    

    Juanita said:

    Very perceptive, Steve!

     

    I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

    Juanita said:

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
  • Juanita August 28, 2011 at 8:45am

    Very perceptive, Steve!

     

    I think you are onto something...   'working' and being fruitful, even being connected is 'optional' in the church system.   However...  we COULD ask the question, was Jesus serious when he said that we would be tested to see if we were fruitful.   Good seed bears fruit.  Perhaps like the Jews who thought they were children of Abraham because they came through 'the seed' - there are those who think they are children of God because they 'accepted Jesus into their hearts' - yet were never converted to being Christ followers.   I believe Christ followers WILL be fruitful.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Steve Belttari said:

    The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

    Juanita said:

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
  • Steve Belttari August 22, 2011 at 6:23am
         The overall impression that I received from the comparison, is the current wineskin the congregants are passive and the new wineskin the congregants are active in advancing the kingdom.  The word work is not found in the current wineskin, but it is found 20 times in the new wineskin.  I do not think that this necessarily means that people are lazy, I think it is a matter of priorities and how the work of the kingdom is to be done.  People do like to have their ears tickled though(2 Tim 4 vs 3-4) so the new wineskin of working to advance the kingdom of God might not be for them.

    Juanita said:

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
  • Juanita August 21, 2011 at 5:09am

    Here are some thoughts for comparision

     

    The current wineskin...
        The focus is the congregation, encouraging people to congregate and talking to them (preaching, prophesing, praying for them, etc.).  To facilitate change in this wineskin requires connecting to the key people in leadership:  Pastors and leaders in the church.  They are the 'gatekeepers'.
     
        At this, the congregation level, sometimes people are stirred to ministy.   However, if we would do a 'fruit inspection' of the people who are stirred, we would see very little fruit - new believers and maturing believers.  Of course, there are NO fruit inspections for the individual believers sitting in the pews!  That is not usually part of the process!!!   If I am out in the community and lead someone to Christ - the congregation doesn't usually RECOGNIZE or celebrate that.   If I am out in the community and perform an act of service or help someone walk the road to maturity or they help me, the congregation doesn't often recognize or celebrate that. This congregation model is not very functional regarding 'new wine.'  
     
        One of the main events that happens in congregations is that people's ears are tickled.   And, for the most part, if that doesn't happen, they don't come back unless they have many relationships in the church, then they may come back because it is comfortable and they are connected to others.  How people decide where to go is often where the ticking happens & if the tickling quits, they are 'called by God' to go somewhere else.
     
     
    The new wineskin...
        The focus is on planting, that is the apostolic/builder work and the prophetic (hearing where-when-how to build) work, those who are primarily builders and prophetic (perceiving where God is leading) equip people to plant. (I have been to many church services were people are called forth to work the God has for them - over the years, I have seen LITTLE fruit from these callings.  People forget, get sidetracked or stall because they can't figure out how to do the work.) Those who are planting proclaim the Kingdom and salvation through Christ for people to come into the Kingdom, they may also draw together current believers to participate in the new work.   As the planting of the new work occurs, the next key work need is the work of the teacher.  (We ought NOT to think of these new works as congregation... much more can be said on that at another time.)  We call people into the new work, since it is NEW, people need to learn new skills and how to have new koininia (relationships that are partnering in extending the Kingdom).   Imparting these new skills and the understanding of what needs to be done is the work of teaching.
        The work of pastor (gathering and guiding) is done with all as part of creating the new work, esablishing and extending it.
        The work of evangelism (bringing new people to Christ, teaching them and raising them to do the work) is done as part of creating the new work and as part of extending the new work.  Living the work:  The work is modeled by the planters and it is reproduced in the participants  
        If the work is not fruitful, it dies and does not reproduce.   This is a good thing.
     
    The old wineskin requires people 'attend'.
    The new wineskin requires people serve others and server with others, in order to do this (committed relationships to build) we find that we MUST die to live a new life of fruitfulness.)
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