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 America is as much an economic phenomenon as it is a nation. It is built on a system whose driving force is the profit motive. Our economy blatantly rewards greed. In classic economic theory greed is good. A person who is motivated by greed will create, as unintended byproducts, benefits for everyone, such as employment and the development of new goods and services. Let the rich get richer, the saying goes, and the benefits will "trickle down" to the rest of us.

 Under a pure capitalistic system the government keeps hands off and allows the market to decide how the money flows. The problem is, as we have found in this era of deregulation, the money flows to the top.

Tampering with the market system to redistribute the wealth or assure that the poor are protected is labeled "socialism."

By these standards Jesus was a socialist.

 Jesus spoke remarkably often about wealth and poverty. To the poor he said, "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God," (Luke's version). To the rich he said, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth," and "go, sell what you have, and give to the poor." When the rich turned away from him because they couldn't follow his command he observed, "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

For Jesus, helping the poor and the outcast is not optional: it is the essence of what it means to love God. In the parable of the last judgement he welcomes the righteous into heaven saying, "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." When the righteous answered that they didn't recall doing any of these things, he said, "as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

We are to "forgive our debtors" and "give to every one who begs from you." But don't handouts contribute to moral decay? Jesus was more concerned about the moral decay in those who are so attached to their wealth that they would hoard it for themselves. In our better moments most of us recognize that giving does not corrupt. We sacrifice to give good things to our children and do our best to provide them with years of carefree existence as they grow up. We do this to give them a sense of security and a foundation for growth. People who have been devastated by misfortune, or for whatever reason are down and out, may need even more help because they may not have what it takes to recover on their own.

 What's wrong with trickle-down economics? Every time I hear that phrase I think of the story Jesus told about a rich man and the beggar Lazarus "who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table." Needless to say, the story ends with Lazarus going to a better place than the rich man. Trickle down theory is about crumbs. Those who say we should settle for crumbs would make us a nation of beggars.

Greed may be a driving force for the economy, but Jesus saw it is as destructive to community. Greed may leave a few crumbs behind for the poor, and it may do some unintended good, but it destroys compassion. Compassion is in short supply in our society today where workers are being downsized in the name of efficiency, prisons are being expanded to insulate society from its underclasses, and the middle class is abandoned by the rich to fight it out with the poor for the table scraps.

Jesus' response to economic inequality is very direct: we are to share the wealth. I once heard a talk about world hunger. The point was that we produce far more food than is needed to feed everyone on earth. The problem is not lack of supply; it is maldistribution. Many people are simply too poor to buy the food they need. This talk gave me a new perspective on the story of the feeding of the 5000. Jesus was out in the desert followed by a huge crowd. The disciples were concerned that it was getting late in the day and they didn't have enough food to feed the crowd. My suspicion is that Jesus sensed there was plenty of food in the crowd, but whereas some had plenty, others had nothing. Sensing an opportunity to make a point, he instructed his disciples to take their five loaves and two fish and distribute them freely to the crowd. By the sheer audaciousness of this act he induced those with food to join him in giving it away. The result is everyone was fed that day with twelve baskets left over. If Jesus simply did a magic trick and made food appear, what's the point? Whoopee! He's divine. He's not like us. But if, by his act of giving away all he had in the face of the overwhelming crowd, he demonstrated the power of a sharing community, he achieved a real miracle! Sharing is a lesson we especially need to learn today.

 

Thank you for your time. James

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  To a point I agree with you. I would like you to tell me what two of God's commandments are broke by Socialism? I don't see national health care as Socialism. Nor, do I see a social safety net of unemployment as socialism.

 Just look at what the Republican House passed without a single democrat voting for it passed. Republican budget plan, which passed the House on April 15, is basically a reverse Robin Hood, it takes from the poor to give to the rich. It increases tax breaks for millionaires and extends them to special interests that ship jobs overseas.$800 billion in tax cuts for the very wealthy. Cuts of $2.9 trillion, off set by giving it to the super rich.

 Tell me again this is what Jesus would do?

Bro Cope said:

The problem with socialism is that it is compulsion.  As you say capitalism is founded on greed, socialism is founded on covetousness.  For the man who has little to use the power of the state to steal and give to him is as much a thief as if he had used a gun to rob someone on the street.  The only difference is who is threatening the victim.  Is the poor man threatening him or is the poor man's AGENT threatening him.

 

Just as the rich man is commanded to be generous to those less fortunate than he, so too is the poor man commanded to be content with what he has.  God is the one who makes one man rich and another man poor.  Socialism simply replaces benificence in the rich with theft by the poor. 

 

Is it necessary for me to point out that greed is not included in the ten commandments but theft and covetousness are?  Socialism is an economic model firmly based upon breaking two of God's commandments.

 

I also want to point out that redistributing wealth lacks the one thing that God wants in us - virtue.  It is virtuous to VOLUNTARILY give to the poor.  It is not virtuous in any way to try to do the same thing by state compulsion.  That is like using the power of the state and the threat of imprisonment to force a girl to love you.

 

Your understanding of the Matthew 25 judgment is completely wrong.  That does not describe how the Christian will be judged, but how the world will be judged.  At that point, the Christians will have already been judged.

 

https://www.facebook.com/bro.cope#!/note.php?note_id=180374025344079

 

 

Thank you, I agree  IMO, straight up Capitalism nor straight up Socialism will not work. With Capitalism you end up with a few very rich and a huge number of super poor. In Socialism there is no drive to work hard to get ahead.  

MostlyBruce Eilenberger said:

I love the discussion. I always learn so much. Thank you. I can only offer one more thing. Jesus also told His disciples that the 'poor will always be with' us. In that context I think He is instructing us to have our priorities right. I don't think it's a Capitalistic vs. Socialistic subject. It is, as with all things Christ taught, a heart thing.


 Parable of the Talents,   This is shown in Matthew and Luke. Matthew is the one you are talking about. I believe you missed the point. In Matthew the rich man was making money by, "harvesting where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed. IE: ripping off others that can't take on the rich man. 

 

The story in Luke is different: It is the same in that the ones that make the King money are rewarded the one that puts the kings money in a hole is killed alone with around 3000 others. Nice guy this King.NOT!!!

 

 IMO, this nails what we have today. The rich get richer reaping what they did not sow, Screwing the poor because they can.

 

 

 

 All I can say to you is keep reading because these rich men end up being seen as Goats by Jesus.. You will be a goat on the left with this kind of thinking. 

 


Freedomist said:

 America is as much an economic phenomenon as it is a nation. It is built on a system whose driving force is the profit motive.

America was built on the Godly principle of individual liberty, of a government that derived its power from the people, not one that dictated to the people what it thought was ‘best for it’.

Our economy blatantly rewards greed.

Our nation is the most generous nation on the planet.

In classic economic theory greed is good. A person who is motivated by greed will create, as unintended byproducts, benefits for everyone, such as employment and the development of new goods and services. Let the rich get richer, the saying goes, and the benefits will "trickle down" to the rest of us.

 Under a pure capitalistic system the government keeps hands off and allows the market to decide how the money flows. The problem is, as we have found in this era of deregulation, the money flows to the top.

We don’t have a pure capitalist system.  We have a highly regulated market that is geared towards lowering the cost of corporations and raising the entry cost for new players in the market system, because it is a de facto oligarchy run by a collection of political/corporate/military ‘aristocrats’ who create more regulations, more licensing fees, always in the name of economic justice, saving the planet, or some such altruistic slogan.  It is not a pure market system.  Capitalism without morals will always devolve to this highly regulated reality.

Tampering with the market system to redistribute the wealth or assure that the poor are protected is labeled "socialism."

Socialism is defined by the forced redistribution of wealth at the end of, ultimately, a gun.  When you consider the whole Word of God, which we as Christians must do, the idea of forced ‘generosity’ goes against a central Christian tenet.  Works without love are meaningless.  Read Corinthians chapter 13.

By these standards Jesus was a socialist.

Socialists believe in separation of church and state.  We are told as Christians that 100% of our lives, everything we do, is connected to God and derives its authority and wisdom from God’s way.  Socialists  are not only for the redistribution of wealth, but for forcing an atheist, secularist agenda on all citizens, ESPECIALLY those meddlesome Christians.  Socialism is a total philosophy, a total godless value system that Christ most assuredly would NEVER endorse.

 Jesus spoke remarkably often about wealth and poverty. To the poor he said, "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God," (Luke's version). To the rich he said, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth,"

A ‘wealthy’ Christian in the service of Christ recognizes that none of his wealth is lasting, that his wealth is meant to serve Christ.  The ‘poor’ part is inconsistent with other parts of the new testament where Christ recognizes wealthy people, like Lazarus, for instance, like Joseph of Arimathea, for being Godly men despite their wealth.

Remember the parable of the Talents?  A man was given 10 talents, turned it into 20.  Another man was given 5 talents, turned it into 5.  Still another was given 1 talent.  He held onto that talent.  He did nothing to increase the wealth.  When the master returned, he gave that one talent from the man who did nothing with it to the man who turned 10 talents into 20.  To those who have little, they will lose what they have.  To those who have much, they will gain much.  This is not to say that poor people will lose what they have, but rather, if God blesses you, and he does bless us, in many ways, including with real wealth, we are compelled to be good stewards and turn that blessing into more blessings that we might share with others, through direct donations, through sharing our homes with the homeless, or building businesses that provide jobs for people.

 and "go, sell what you have, and give to the poor." When the rich turned away from him because they couldn't follow his command he observed, "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

This moment is quoted often by socialists who seek to use the Word to force their government-mandated ‘kindness’ on the rest of us.  Jesus was not talking to all rich people when he addressed this man, he knew the hearts of men.  He knew who their real masters were.  One man’s master was his father.  He told Jesus he would leave with him AFTER he buried his father.  Should we not bury our parents then?  No.  The rich man had let his wealth become his master.  He served his wealth, instead of using his wealth, which God gave him, to serve the kingdom.  It will be difficult, but not impossible, for a rich man to enter the kingdom.  You will find wealthy men whom Christ called friends throughout the new testament.  One wealthy man, still wealthy, explained how he was paying back his debts to those he wronged.  He did not lose his wealth, but he stopped serving his wealth, and served the kingdom instead.

For Jesus, helping the poor and the outcast is not optional: it is the essence of what it means to love God. In the parable of the last judgment he welcomes the righteous into heaven saying, "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." When the righteous answered that they didn't recall doing any of these things, he said, "as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

Here, you make my point for me...”what it means to love God”…to love God is to obey God..the two great commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love one another as you love yourself.  This is directed at individuals, not the state.  State-mandated ‘godliness’ is not even biblical.  The state is instructed (see Acts and the letters of Paul) to follow a godly path when it comes to man’s relation to man.  So, for instance, a godly state would not allow homosexual marriage or abortions, but it would not mandate man’s relation to God.  Loving God with all your heart, loving others, and serving God and others in that love is a PERSONAL relationship with God, not a State-mandated action.

We are to "forgive our debtors" and "give to every one who begs from you." But don't handouts contribute to moral decay?

Are you saying that personal charity is immoral while state charity is moral?  I am not sure I even remotely follow this flawed logic.

Jesus was more concerned about the moral decay in those who are so attached to their wealth that they would hoard it for themselves. In our better moments most of us recognize that giving does not corrupt.

I am not sure I am reading the same bible as you are.  Jesus was concerned about people not following Him, not living in His love, and not living out that love with the people God places in front of you.  For him, sin is sin is sin.  There is not a special place in hell for those evil rich people.  You do not, for instance, have to be wealthy, to hoard.  You do not have to be wealthy to place other masters of Christ.  Wealth is a great temptation to sin, true, but there are other equally great temptations to sin, like, say you are a very handsome man who gets offers from attractive women all the time.  Sexual sin will be harder for you to resist than it might be for a less attractive man who doesn’t get the same amount of ‘offers’.

We sacrifice to give good things to our children and do our best to provide them with years of carefree existence as they grow up.

Carefree existence?  Do you have children?  I don’t think many parents, there may be a few, are trying to create a carefree existence for their kids, rather we try to prepare our children for the vicissitudes of life.  So much of what happens to people in life is beyond their control.  It is how you react to tragedy, to turns of misfortune, that defines your character, who you are.  We as Christians are called to welcome suffering (see James) for it is in times of suffering that we prove our faith in Christ AND we are given opportunities to witness the Christ way.  It is easy to be a ‘happy’ Christian and share the Word when times are good, but when you are dying of Cancer and you still testify to Christ and show total faith in His path for you, despite your suffering, THEN you offer great testimony to yourself about your faith, which brings you closer to Christ, AND serve as a powerful witness to non-believers who have throughout the ages been brought to Christ by the strength of his followers in the face of persecution and adversity.

I sacrifice for my daughter because I love her, because I put her ahead of my own needs, not to give her a carefree existence.

 We do this to give them a sense of security and a foundation for growth. People who have been devastated by misfortune, or for whatever reason are down and out, may need even more help because they may not have what it takes to recover on their own.

My daughter needs, more than anything else, my love and dedication, not my money, and certainly not the cold cash of a government agency that will treat her like a number, not like a child of God.

 What's wrong with trickle-down economics? Every time I hear that phrase I think of the story Jesus told about a rich man and the beggar Lazarus "who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table." Needless to say, the story ends with Lazarus going to a better place than the rich man. Trickle down theory is about crumbs. Those who say we should settle for crumbs would make us a nation of beggars.

Did the rich man go to hell because he was rich or because he did not acknowledge God and recognize his people?  Did Lazarus go to heaven because he ate crumbs at the master’s table or because he put his faith in God.  Your analogy misses the key point of the story, that the things of the world which can be seen, wealth, stuff, fall away in the next.  The things in this world which CAN’T be seen, faith, hope, and most importantly love, live on in eternity.  This parable speaks neither for or against ‘trickle down economics’, and Christ himself did not speak about the economic theories of states, but about the relationships we as Christians should have with God, with our families, with the body of Christ, and with the unbelievers.

Greed may be a driving force for the economy, but Jesus saw it is as destructive to community. Greed may leave a few crumbs behind for the poor, and it may do some unintended good, but it destroys compassion. Compassion is in short supply in our society today where workers are being downsized in the name of efficiency, prisons are being expanded to insulate society from its underclasses, and the middle class is abandoned by the rich to fight it out with the poor for the table scraps.

Greed is a sin, but a state that takes from the people that which does not rightfully belong to it, wealth to ‘generously’ give to other people, is also being greedy.  Lord Acton- Power tends to corrupt- absolute power corrupts absolutely- when you have a body of a thousand or so men and women in congress and the executive branch gaining control of trillions of dollars it takes from those it feels has too much to ‘give’ to those who don’t have enough, you will find that system far more corrupt and riddled with greed than the individual sins of businesses who control, per corporate structure, far less dollars than the small cadre of government big brains you would have given trillions of our dollars so that they can fulfill Jesus’ command to feed the poor and shelter the homeless.  I guarantee you a lot less poor and homeless will be taken care of in that system than in a fully-practicing kingdom people of God who live out in their daily lives the ways of the kingdom.

It is true that American Christians have forgotten the kingdom way, don’t live it out, don’t even understand what it is anymore, and, over the past 150 plus years, have gradually allowed government to take over roles we as Christians are responsible for fulfilling.  Christian families are un-united.  The body of Christ is comprised of thousands upon thousands of territorial silos.  A powerless, spoiled salt, no longer vital in a world now dominated by the State.  But the answer is not more of the corrupting influence of the State, but a return to the kingdom way of living for the whole body of Christ.  A united body of Christ can do far more for the poor, for the homeless, for the widows, than ever the unwieldy, bureaucratic nightmare that is the State leviathan, laden with special interests and government workers who are mostly interested in maintaining their special healthcare benefits and their ‘never get fired’ job position.  You get good deeds in a trickle from a massive money system that keeps the wealth in the hands of the political class, not a one of these deeds based in individual love for another individual, a love based in Christ, not in State law.


Jesus' response to economic inequality is very direct: we are to share the wealth. I once heard a talk about world hunger. The point was that we produce far more food than is needed to feed everyone on earth. The problem is not lack of supply; it is maldistribution. Many people are simply too poor to buy the food they need. This talk gave me a new perspective on the story of the feeding of the 5000. Jesus was out in the desert followed by a huge crowd. The disciples were concerned that it was getting late in the day and they didn't have enough food to feed the crowd. My suspicion is that Jesus sensed there was plenty of food in the crowd, but whereas some had plenty, others had nothing. Sensing an opportunity to make a point, he instructed his disciples to take their five loaves and two fish and distribute them freely to the crowd. By the sheer audaciousness of this act he induced those with food to join him in giving it away. The result is everyone was fed that day with twelve baskets left over. If Jesus simply did a magic trick and made food appear, what's the point? Whoopee! He's divine. He's not like us. But if, by his act of giving away all he had in the face of the overwhelming crowd, he demonstrated the power of a sharing community, he achieved a real miracle! Sharing is a lesson we especially need to learn today.

Here you show your fundamental lack of understanding of who Jesus is.  He is absolutely not like us.  He is Holy and Pure.  We will never be like Christ.  He absolutely performed a miracle and illustrated a point you seem to have missed and turned into yet another attempt to use liberation theology (that is what you are preaching here, did you know that?) to convince Christians that state-mandated wealth redistribution is a godly thing.  Jesus was showing the disciples, and the crowds, though more the disciples, that He has a food which can never be exhausted.  The miracle of the moment was a parable in and of itself of the never-ending sustenance of a Christly food.  That which can be seen will fall away- this is earthly food.  That which cannot be seen will last forever- this is the food of Christ.  Later, these same thousands want to make Jesus a king, because he fed them earthly food.  Whoopee! As you would say.

He told them of a food that has no end.  He invited them to eat his body and drink his blood.  If you understand the tradition of sacrifice outlined in Leviticus you will see the significance of his statement.  He is the holy, the pure sacrifice.  Jews ate the bodies of the sacrificed animals.  Priests were actually required to do it, but it was considered a grave sin to touch blood.  Jesus told them He was a sacrifice that was so pure, you can eat the whole body and even drink the blood.

What is that food?  What was Christ?  He was the Word made flesh.  He is the living Word and the word is his flesh and his blood.  He was more concerned, far more concerned, about your spiritual welfare than your physical welfare.  He wasn’t teaching them good socialist principles.  If that were the case, why would they clamor to make him King and ask him to give them more food?  He performed a miracle and everyone there knew it.  But they wanted the miracle of the earthly food, and not the miracle of the spiritual food he was showing them.

Hi James,
How's your day going? Good, I hope.

I am all for unemployment insurance. It is a great safety net. But I am totally against forced health care. My reason is that it is not health care; it is pharmaceutical escrow. Sickness is big business. Sickness increases Wall Street's bottom line.

True health care would teach about nutrients and biochemical interdependencies. It would stress health and well-being. The FDA would truly be consumer based and not client based. They would support nutrient research instead of trying to put people in jail for showing what nutrients would put Merck out of business.

Forcing children to take mercury/aluminum tainted vaccines and then blocking parents the right to sue for redress when their child is crippled for life, says the Government is protecting Pharmaceutical Inc. and not interested in the health and well-being of the populace.

My health insurance won't pay for my nutrients, even though I haven't been to a doctor in years. But if I wanted to take a dozen pharmaceuticals, they would pay for them all, because it increases Wall Street Pharmaceuticals' bottom line.

The argument here is not Democrats or Republicans, it is man with a fallen nature vs man with a fallen nature. Sometimes that fallen nature shows up in all of us, saint and sinner alike. The difference is God will correct and teach his children.

I would love a black president if he was for the people. T. D. Jakes for president! or Creflo Dollar and a host of others. But that's not going to happen. To be president, one has to be committed to the inner circle agenda.

Conspiracy theory? Yes, The Book of Revelation will unfold. It may not be exactly how we pictured it, but its events will take place and in the fullness of time, this age will close.

I am glad you posted your "Is Jesus a Socialist? forum question. The response and activity is great. And I think you already know "Health Care" is one of my pet peeves, even though the only person I can choose for is me. The only pet peeve I have that's greater is the evolution narrative. :-))

Great post, James!
Have a great day,
Mark

 
James said:

  To a point I agree with you. I would like you to tell me what two of God's commandments are broke by Socialism? I don't see national health care as Socialism. Nor, do I see a social safety net of unemployment as socialism.

 Just look at what the Republican House passed without a single democrat voting for it passed. Republican budget plan, which passed the House on April 15, is basically a reverse Robin Hood, it takes from the poor to give to the rich. It increases tax breaks for millionaires and extends them to special interests that ship jobs overseas.$800 billion in tax cuts for the very wealthy. Cuts of $2.9 trillion, off set by giving it to the super rich.

 Tell me again this is what Jesus would do?

Bro Cope said:

The problem with socialism is that it is compulsion.  As you say capitalism is founded on greed, socialism is founded on covetousness.  For the man who has little to use the power of the state to steal and give to him is as much a thief as if he had used a gun to rob someone on the street.  The only difference is who is threatening the victim.  Is the poor man threatening him or is the poor man's AGENT threatening him.

 

Just as the rich man is commanded to be generous to those less fortunate than he, so too is the poor man commanded to be content with what he has.  God is the one who makes one man rich and another man poor.  Socialism simply replaces benificence in the rich with theft by the poor. 

 

Is it necessary for me to point out that greed is not included in the ten commandments but theft and covetousness are?  Socialism is an economic model firmly based upon breaking two of God's commandments.

 

I also want to point out that redistributing wealth lacks the one thing that God wants in us - virtue.  It is virtuous to VOLUNTARILY give to the poor.  It is not virtuous in any way to try to do the same thing by state compulsion.  That is like using the power of the state and the threat of imprisonment to force a girl to love you.

 

Your understanding of the Matthew 25 judgment is completely wrong.  That does not describe how the Christian will be judged, but how the world will be judged.  At that point, the Christians will have already been judged.

 

https://www.facebook.com/bro.cope#!/note.php?note_id=180374025344079

 

 

 Howdy mark,

 My day is going good. Weather nasty, but that's spring time in the rocky mountains. My daughter's boyfriend asked me for permission to marry my daughter. I had fun with him for awhile then told him yes. So my daughter is engaged to be married now. One down one to go.LOL

 

 Sorry but I find your reason against health care for all a cop out.I'll tell you why. Don't you read the news at all. It was all over this past week. People without insurance are not the problem it is the ones with insurance that are killing them selfs with fatal overdoses of prescription drugs.

 Something like 17 states have more death from prescription drug overdoses then auto accidents . These are not poor people many are Christians like your self. Poor people smoke weed ,snort cocaine and drink booze it is the ones with insurance that are the pill poppers. They are dropping like flies. I my book let them keep dieing.Self righteous druggies.

 

So you would agree I should be free to sue you in court if your  Non-vaccinated kid made my kid sick?  Besides a kid gets far more mercury eating a couple cans of tuna. Lets look at aluminum.It is in your toothpaste, deodorant, aluminum cookware and many cities put aluminum in drinking water as a clearing agent . Again far more then a few vaccines would give ya.

 

If by nutrients you mean vitamins all your doing is making costly colored  piss. Thats fine by me, but don't see why insurance should cover it.

 

T. D. Jakes lives in a 1.7 million dollar mansion while falsely claiming that Jesus was rich and that God wants us to be rich, too.  T.D. Jake and  Creflo Dollar both say Jesus is not God and that Jesus wants you rich. 

 

For a black presidents, I'd go with Colin Powell or Bill Cosby.  



Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,
How's your day going? Good, I hope.

I am all for unemployment insurance. It is a great safety net. But I am totally against forced health care. My reason is that it is not health care; it is pharmaceutical escrow. Sickness is big business. Sickness increases Wall Street's bottom line.

True health care would teach about nutrients and biochemical interdependencies. It would stress health and well-being. The FDA would truly be consumer based and not client based. They would support nutrient research instead of trying to put people in jail for showing what nutrients would put Merck out of business.

Forcing children to take mercury/aluminum tainted vaccines and then blocking parents the right to sue for redress when their child is crippled for life, says the Government is protecting Pharmaceutical Inc. and not interested in the health and well-being of the populace.

My health insurance won't pay for my nutrients, even though I haven't been to a doctor in years. But if I wanted to take a dozen pharmaceuticals, they would pay for them all, because it increases Wall Street Pharmaceuticals' bottom line.

The argument here is not Democrats or Republicans, it is man with a fallen nature vs man with a fallen nature. Sometimes that fallen nature shows up in all of us, saint and sinner alike. The difference is God will correct and teach his children.

I would love a black president if he was for the people. T. D. Jakes for president! or Creflo Dollar and a host of others. But that's not going to happen. To be president, one has to be committed to the inner circle agenda.

Conspiracy theory? Yes, The Book of Revelation will unfold. It may not be exactly how we pictured it, but its events will take place and in the fullness of time, this age will close.

I am glad you posted your "Is Jesus a Socialist? forum question. The response and activity is great. And I think you already know "Health Care" is one of my pet peeves, even though the only person I can choose for is me. The only pet peeve I have that's greater is the evolution narrative. :-))

Great post, James!
Have a great day,
Mark

 
James said:

  To a point I agree with you. I would like you to tell me what two of God's commandments are broke by Socialism? I don't see national health care as Socialism. Nor, do I see a social safety net of unemployment as socialism.

 Just look at what the Republican House passed without a single democrat voting for it passed. Republican budget plan, which passed the House on April 15, is basically a reverse Robin Hood, it takes from the poor to give to the rich. It increases tax breaks for millionaires and extends them to special interests that ship jobs overseas.$800 billion in tax cuts for the very wealthy. Cuts of $2.9 trillion, off set by giving it to the super rich.

 Tell me again this is what Jesus would do?

Bro Cope said:

The problem with socialism is that it is compulsion.  As you say capitalism is founded on greed, socialism is founded on covetousness.  For the man who has little to use the power of the state to steal and give to him is as much a thief as if he had used a gun to rob someone on the street.  The only difference is who is threatening the victim.  Is the poor man threatening him or is the poor man's AGENT threatening him.

 

Just as the rich man is commanded to be generous to those less fortunate than he, so too is the poor man commanded to be content with what he has.  God is the one who makes one man rich and another man poor.  Socialism simply replaces benificence in the rich with theft by the poor. 

 

Is it necessary for me to point out that greed is not included in the ten commandments but theft and covetousness are?  Socialism is an economic model firmly based upon breaking two of God's commandments.

 

I also want to point out that redistributing wealth lacks the one thing that God wants in us - virtue.  It is virtuous to VOLUNTARILY give to the poor.  It is not virtuous in any way to try to do the same thing by state compulsion.  That is like using the power of the state and the threat of imprisonment to force a girl to love you.

 

Your understanding of the Matthew 25 judgment is completely wrong.  That does not describe how the Christian will be judged, but how the world will be judged.  At that point, the Christians will have already been judged.

 

https://www.facebook.com/bro.cope#!/note.php?note_id=180374025344079

 

 

 

 

Here is the part you are quoting:

Matthew 25:24  And he who had had the one talent came and said, Lord, I had knowledge that you are a hard man, getting in grain where you have not put seed, and making profits for which you have done no work:
25  And I was in fear, and went away, and put your talent in the earth: here is what is yours.
26  But his lord in answer said to him, You are a bad and unready servant; if you had knowledge that I get in grain where I did not put seed, and make profits for which I have done no work,
27  Why, then, did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I would have got back what is mine with interest?
28  Take away, then, his talent and give it to him who has the ten talents.
29  For to everyone who has will be given, and he will have more: but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30  And put out the servant who is of no profit into the outer dark: there will be weeping and cries of sorrow.

 

In this passage, nowhere does the master say that this wicked servant is right, that he actually gained from no work of his own.  Rather, he only pointed out that if this were indeed true, then the servant would be wise to make sure the master's money had gained- for this is how the servant thought the master worked....

This part of the parable illustrates the non-believer, people like you, who blaspheme Christ daily, who accuse him of being a crook, an unjust God, a socialist, an intolerant monster.  But yet Christ blessed you and gave you 'talents' which you will bury in a hole because you see Christ as the unworthy servant sees him.

 

 

As for Jesus thinking of the rich as all 'goats', perhaps you should consider this encounter he had with a roman officer.  Roman Officers of the provinces were wealthy men.  This one had servants, a fact that alone showed he was a rich man, and watch how Christ treats him:

 

Matthew 8:5  ¶And when Jesus was come into Capernaum, a certain captain came to him with a request,
6  Saying, Lord, my servant is ill in bed at the house, with no power in his body, and in great pain.
7  And he said to him, I will come and make him well.
8  And the captain in answer said, Lord, I am not good enough for you to come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be made well.
9  Because I myself am a man under authority, having under me fighting men; and I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my servant, Do this, and he does it.
10  And when these words came to the ears of Jesus he was surprised, and said to those who came after him, Truly I say to you, I have not seen such great faith, no, not in Israel.
11  And I say to you that numbers will come from the east and the west, and will take their seats with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12  But the sons of the kingdom will be put out into the dark, and there will be weeping and cries of pain.
13  And Jesus said to the captain, Go in peace; as your faith is, so let it be done to you. And the servant was made well in that hour.

 

This rich man was a symbol of the kingdom being opened to the 'gentiles', hardly a goat at all.

 

As for me being a goat on the left, not sure I follow that.  I am not a rich man, and If I were, I would certainly use my wealth to serve the Lord.....

 

I noticed your assaults on TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar.  I don't know the truth or lack thereof of your statements, but neither of these men speak for the Word quite like the Word does itself.  If you have been blessed with God, and you hoard wealth and it becomes your master, you will not enter the kingdom, like the rich man Jesus knew would not give up his property to follow Him.  If you are blessed with millions and you turn that millions to many more blessings for others in the name of the Lord, then you are the roman captain. 


If they are saying and doing as you say they are, then they are two wealthy men who will not enter the kingdom of heaven.  In addition to that, leading the sheep away from a true Christ message is an awfully serious attempt to Christ and the Father.

Hi James,

I like you and want your life to go well, but I have to tell you, you presuppose ignorance for knowledge and then tout it as if you were a source.

http://www.thereflectionhouse.com/The_Vaccine_Myth.txt

The only thing consistent about vaccines is brain inflamation.

In the past, we had to accept whatever doctors who are nothing more than pharma business agents, told us. Not so, anymore. There are doctors and researchers speaking out.

We are a set of biochemical interdependencies. Our systems depend on a host of function specific minerals and phyto-chemicals from the plant kingdom for systems to function. Without them, things start shutting down, defenses aren't in place and renegade processes occur.

James, do you know anything about the endocrine sytems or what biochemicals are necessary for them to function? Are you interested? Ignorance is bliss until you hear the words, "Pancreatic Cancer."

Most of our sickness is coming from our new complete meal- burger, fries and a coke. No one is telling us about the BPA in the coke plastic cup, the dangers of consumption of colas, the double jeopardy of deep fried fries, the bromine dangers of flour products or alloxan/diabetes connection created by clorine bleaching of flour.

Then when we get sick, we are offered profit oriented alchemy as the cure. No thank you.

Life is choice, James. I choose to study health. When I die, it won't be from sickness. If you wish to defend Pharma Inc. it's your choice. But your words are falling on deaf ears, touting forced health care, when it is nothing more than pharma escrow.

The difference between us James, is I listen to the message of the minister. If his words are coming from Scripture and teaches me about the Lord, I listen. You are not interested in the message, only to point fingers at someone when you yourself are doing nothing to build the kingdom.

But I have to hand it to you, James, you sure do keep it lively. Keep up the good work! :-)) Anytime we are forced to dig deep to explain why we feel the way we do, it is a good thing.

Have a great day!
Mark

 

 



James said:

 Howdy mark,

 My day is going good. Weather nasty, but that's spring time in the rocky mountains. My daughter's boyfriend asked me for permission to marry my daughter. I had fun with him for awhile then told him yes. So my daughter is engaged to be married now. One down one to go.LOL

 

 Sorry but I find your reason against health care for all a cop out.I'll tell you why. Don't you read the news at all. It was all over this past week. People without insurance are not the problem it is the ones with insurance that are killing them selfs with fatal overdoses of prescription drugs.

 Something like 17 states have more death from prescription drug overdoses then auto accidents . These are not poor people many are Christians like your self. Poor people smoke weed ,snort cocaine and drink booze it is the ones with insurance that are the pill poppers. They are dropping like flies. I my book let them keep dieing.Self righteous druggies.

 

So you would agree I should be free to sue you in court if your  Non-vaccinated kid made my kid sick?  Besides a kid gets far more mercury eating a couple cans of tuna. Lets look at aluminum.It is in your toothpaste, deodorant, aluminum cookware and many cities put aluminum in drinking water as a clearing agent . Again far more then a few vaccines would give ya.

 

If by nutrients you mean vitamins all your doing is making costly colored  piss. Thats fine by me, but don't see why insurance should cover it.

 

T. D. Jakes lives in a 1.7 million dollar mansion while falsely claiming that Jesus was rich and that God wants us to be rich, too.  T.D. Jake and  Creflo Dollar both say Jesus is not God and that Jesus wants you rich. 

 

For a black presidents, I'd go with Colin Powell or Bill Cosby.  



Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,
How's your day going? Good, I hope.

I am all for unemployment insurance. It is a great safety net. But I am totally against forced health care. My reason is that it is not health care; it is pharmaceutical escrow. Sickness is big business. Sickness increases Wall Street's bottom line.

True health care would teach about nutrients and biochemical interdependencies. It would stress health and well-being. The FDA would truly be consumer based and not client based. They would support nutrient research instead of trying to put people in jail for showing what nutrients would put Merck out of business.

Forcing children to take mercury/aluminum tainted vaccines and then blocking parents the right to sue for redress when their child is crippled for life, says the Government is protecting Pharmaceutical Inc. and not interested in the health and well-being of the populace.

My health insurance won't pay for my nutrients, even though I haven't been to a doctor in years. But if I wanted to take a dozen pharmaceuticals, they would pay for them all, because it increases Wall Street Pharmaceuticals' bottom line.

The argument here is not Democrats or Republicans, it is man with a fallen nature vs man with a fallen nature. Sometimes that fallen nature shows up in all of us, saint and sinner alike. The difference is God will correct and teach his children.

I would love a black president if he was for the people. T. D. Jakes for president! or Creflo Dollar and a host of others. But that's not going to happen. To be president, one has to be committed to the inner circle agenda.

Conspiracy theory? Yes, The Book of Revelation will unfold. It may not be exactly how we pictured it, but its events will take place and in the fullness of time, this age will close.

I am glad you posted your "Is Jesus a Socialist? forum question. The response and activity is great. And I think you already know "Health Care" is one of my pet peeves, even though the only person I can choose for is me. The only pet peeve I have that's greater is the evolution narrative. :-))

Great post, James!
Have a great day,
Mark

 
James said:

  To a point I agree with you. I would like you to tell me what two of God's commandments are broke by Socialism? I don't see national health care as Socialism. Nor, do I see a social safety net of unemployment as socialism.

 Just look at what the Republican House passed without a single democrat voting for it passed. Republican budget plan, which passed the House on April 15, is basically a reverse Robin Hood, it takes from the poor to give to the rich. It increases tax breaks for millionaires and extends them to special interests that ship jobs overseas.$800 billion in tax cuts for the very wealthy. Cuts of $2.9 trillion, off set by giving it to the super rich.

 Tell me again this is what Jesus would do?

Bro Cope said:

The problem with socialism is that it is compulsion.  As you say capitalism is founded on greed, socialism is founded on covetousness.  For the man who has little to use the power of the state to steal and give to him is as much a thief as if he had used a gun to rob someone on the street.  The only difference is who is threatening the victim.  Is the poor man threatening him or is the poor man's AGENT threatening him.

 

Just as the rich man is commanded to be generous to those less fortunate than he, so too is the poor man commanded to be content with what he has.  God is the one who makes one man rich and another man poor.  Socialism simply replaces benificence in the rich with theft by the poor. 

 

Is it necessary for me to point out that greed is not included in the ten commandments but theft and covetousness are?  Socialism is an economic model firmly based upon breaking two of God's commandments.

 

I also want to point out that redistributing wealth lacks the one thing that God wants in us - virtue.  It is virtuous to VOLUNTARILY give to the poor.  It is not virtuous in any way to try to do the same thing by state compulsion.  That is like using the power of the state and the threat of imprisonment to force a girl to love you.

 

Your understanding of the Matthew 25 judgment is completely wrong.  That does not describe how the Christian will be judged, but how the world will be judged.  At that point, the Christians will have already been judged.

 

https://www.facebook.com/bro.cope#!/note.php?note_id=180374025344079

 

 

Fine by me.Don't ever see a doctor again. BPA in coke bottles,the Coke inside an't any better.

 LOL, I'll take two #1's super sized and a diet Coke. Whats really funny is that the bible belt is the place where this happens the most. In most every way to lead an unhealthy lifestyle the South is #1.

 Anti-vaccine groups are still working hard to spread their scientifically-unsupported message, in reality  Polio, measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, tetanus are examples of diseases that have all been eliminated in countries that provide the vaccines. Again the South leads in these disease coming back to kill humans.

 Hmm,atheist should back you guys in this anti science thing. What better way to show you your miss placed trust then a couple hundred thousand sick and dieing children.

Since 2007, over 77,000 preventable illnesses in the U.S. have indirectly resulted from anti-vaccine movements, and over 700 deaths. And most of it is traceable to research that has been proved fraudulent that claimed to show a link between vaccines and autism.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/04/dangerous-anti-vaccine-ad-shou...

 

 Sure I know a bit about the endocrine system. It is made up of glands that produce and secrete hormones. Some of these hormones turned me into a boy while still inside my mother. I also know these systems get much of there kick from billions of bacteria. Thats right you have more bacteria cell then human ones.

 I'm sure you know of different blood types in people. Well know we know that people also have one of three gut bacteria types. In a few more years this new info may change the way people are treated with drugs,as the blood type changed the way blood transfusion were done.  

 If ya listen to the bible I guess ya know illness comes from sin and being possessed.

 

Your are right," Ignorance is bliss"

 I'll leave ya to it.

James

 

 


Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,

I like you and want your life to go well, but I have to tell you, you presuppose ignorance for knowledge and then tout it as if you were a source.

http://www.thereflectionhouse.com/The_Vaccine_Myth.txt

The only thing consistent about vaccines is brain inflamation.

In the past, we had to accept whatever doctors who are nothing more than pharma business agents, told us. Not so, anymore. There are doctors and researchers speaking out.

We are a set of biochemical interdependencies. Our systems depend on a host of function specific minerals and phyto-chemicals from the plant kingdom for systems to function. Without them, things start shutting down, defenses aren't in place and renegade processes occur.

James, do you know anything about the endocrine sytems or what biochemicals are necessary for them to function? Are you interested? Ignorance is bliss until you hear the words, "Pancreatic Cancer."

Most of our sickness is coming from our new complete meal- burger, fries and a coke. No one is telling us about the BPA in the coke plastic cup, the dangers of consumption of colas, the double jeopardy of deep fried fries, the bromine dangers of flour products or alloxan/diabetes connection created by clorine bleaching of flour.

Then when we get sick, we are offered profit oriented alchemy as the cure. No thank you.

Life is choice, James. I choose to study health. When I die, it won't be from sickness. If you wish to defend Pharma Inc. it's your choice. But your words are falling on deaf ears, touting forced health care, when it is nothing more than pharma escrow.

The difference between us James, is I listen to the message of the minister. If his words are coming from Scripture and teaches me about the Lord, I listen. You are not interested in the message, only to point fingers at someone when you yourself are doing nothing to build the kingdom.

But I have to hand it to you, James, you sure do keep it lively. Keep up the good work! :-)) Anytime we are forced to dig deep to explain why we feel the way we do, it is a good thing.

Have a great day!
Mark

 

 



 

How did this thread turn into a debate about present-day healthcare?  I thought it was about James' assumption that Jesus was a socialist.

Hi James,

I am watching The Passion of the Christ. Everything else seems insignificant. My goal in life is to help where I can and not to hinder. I can only provide information; we each have to make our choices. I have made my choices, you have to make yours. Here is another link if you are interested.

http://thereflectionhouse.com/Nutrition_and_Cancer.htm I combined three articles in one.

The overriding factor of life is not how long we live, but where we go when we die. We can have everything else wrong, but if we get that right, we have won. If we get that wrong, we'll have a very long time to reflect on it.

Have a great day, James,

Mark

 



James said:

Fine by me.Don't ever see a doctor again. BPA in coke bottles,the Coke inside an't any better.

 LOL, I'll take two #1's super sized and a diet Coke. Whats really funny is that the bible belt is the place where this happens the most. In most every way to lead an unhealthy lifestyle the South is #1.

 Anti-vaccine groups are still working hard to spread their scientifically-unsupported message, in reality  Polio, measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, tetanus are examples of diseases that have all been eliminated in countries that provide the vaccines. Again the South leads in these disease coming back to kill humans.

 Hmm,atheist should back you guys in this anti science thing. What better way to show you your miss placed trust then a couple hundred thousand sick and dieing children.

Since 2007, over 77,000 preventable illnesses in the U.S. have indirectly resulted from anti-vaccine movements, and over 700 deaths. And most of it is traceable to research that has been proved fraudulent that claimed to show a link between vaccines and autism.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/04/dangerous-anti-vaccine-ad-shou...

 

 Sure I know a bit about the endocrine system. It is made up of glands that produce and secrete hormones. Some of these hormones turned me into a boy while still inside my mother. I also know these systems get much of there kick from billions of bacteria. Thats right you have more bacteria cell then human ones.

 I'm sure you know of different blood types in people. Well know we know that people also have one of three gut bacteria types. In a few more years this new info may change the way people are treated with drugs,as the blood type changed the way blood transfusion were done.  

 If ya listen to the bible I guess ya know illness comes from sin and being possessed.

 

Your are right," Ignorance is bliss"

 I'll leave ya to it.

James

 

 


Mark Edward Kroger said:

Hi James,

I like you and want your life to go well, but I have to tell you, you presuppose ignorance for knowledge and then tout it as if you were a source.

http://www.thereflectionhouse.com/The_Vaccine_Myth.txt

The only thing consistent about vaccines is brain inflamation.

In the past, we had to accept whatever doctors who are nothing more than pharma business agents, told us. Not so, anymore. There are doctors and researchers speaking out.

We are a set of biochemical interdependencies. Our systems depend on a host of function specific minerals and phyto-chemicals from the plant kingdom for systems to function. Without them, things start shutting down, defenses aren't in place and renegade processes occur.

James, do you know anything about the endocrine sytems or what biochemicals are necessary for them to function? Are you interested? Ignorance is bliss until you hear the words, "Pancreatic Cancer."

Most of our sickness is coming from our new complete meal- burger, fries and a coke. No one is telling us about the BPA in the coke plastic cup, the dangers of consumption of colas, the double jeopardy of deep fried fries, the bromine dangers of flour products or alloxan/diabetes connection created by clorine bleaching of flour.

Then when we get sick, we are offered profit oriented alchemy as the cure. No thank you.

Life is choice, James. I choose to study health. When I die, it won't be from sickness. If you wish to defend Pharma Inc. it's your choice. But your words are falling on deaf ears, touting forced health care, when it is nothing more than pharma escrow.

The difference between us James, is I listen to the message of the minister. If his words are coming from Scripture and teaches me about the Lord, I listen. You are not interested in the message, only to point fingers at someone when you yourself are doing nothing to build the kingdom.

But I have to hand it to you, James, you sure do keep it lively. Keep up the good work! :-)) Anytime we are forced to dig deep to explain why we feel the way we do, it is a good thing.

Have a great day!
Mark

 

 



 

Hi Freedomist,

It took a slight detour when James and I were discussing socialized medicine.  We've done that a time or two... :-)) But I'm done with that detour, we can go on with Jesus the Socialist sparring.

My view is natural man cannot escape the Me syndrome. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and self pride/promotion are inherent in the carnal nature of each of us. So even us Christians have to keep our eyes on Christ and keep His Word in us to escape it. So Jesus will always be interpreted through that lens in the carnal mind.

I work on me every day. I want to be a better person, friend, coworker, employee and etc. but I am not taking classes from a carnal Jesus the Socialist, I am taking classes through the Living Word -Proverbs, Romans, etc. and I ask the Holy Spirit to make it Rhema to me and come alive in me.

I like these forums as they make me dig as to what I believe and why. They make me think about what I want to accomplish and why. They make me ask, "Do I really love my neighbor?" So in that respect, James is good for me. I can truly say, "You are such a blessing. I ask God for patience and He sent my you." :-)) 

I noticed in my last response to him, I pushed some buttons. Instead of planting seeds, I have a bad habit of trying to drive them in the ground with a hammer.  The Holy Spirit doesn't do me that way, so I need to cordially just put out there what I want to share and leave it be. So I am learning...albeit sometimes sooo slooow.

Have a great day, Freedomist,

Mark



Freedomist said:

How did this thread turn into a debate about present-day healthcare?  I thought it was about James' assumption that Jesus was a socialist.

Mark,

 

My motivation here is the same as yours, I think, to share the Word with a nonbeliever,  not to bury him, though it is difficult in the flesh not to allow yourself to be provoked into side arguments that steer you away from the Word and back into the human world, lost in endless details and debate, which, I am sure, anyone seeking to shield themselves from the Truth of Christ would revel in.

 

I am not interested in proving to James that Obamacare is good or bad, but rather that not accepting and following the living Word, Christ, is tragically disastrous.  If James can consign Christ to a humanistic, godless philosophy like Socialism, he can (only in a delusional way) escape the judgment and truth of the Lord.  This is a battle worth debating, for we are then planters of the Word in a fallow field.  Whether the seed grows or not, whether we harvest or not, James has been given the seed, the knowing of the Word.

 

Paul

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