I'd like to hear your thoughts on the rapture. I stumbled across this Bible verse the other day, and in my opinion it is proof that there will be no pre-Tribulation rapture:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (NIV)
What do you think? Please cite Bible scripture to support your claim.
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Yes the bible says Jesus wil come back only once.The first thing he will do is raise all the dead from before the flood( none of them are in heaven) to take the good ones to heaven.Then the same thing happens to the dead that died after jesus left.last the living will be judged.
John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Your the one that believes this book why don't ya know it?
i just figure that the Bible says Jesus is coming back one time. only once and thats at the last trumpet. It doesnt say hes coming back one time to get the christians and then another time at the end. Also, why the heck would Jesus take the Christians out of the most important time of history? When the world needs us the most why would He take us away?
For over 2000 yearsevery generation of Christians have thought they were living in the end times.All have been wrong.
Throughout the entire history of Christianity, however, many have held similar views. All those generations of Christians were wrong in thinking they were living in the last days. So should credence be given to identical claims being made by Christians today?
Their belief would be unimportant if it were just a harmless notion held by otherwise normal people. Unfortunately, the doctrine can influence attitudes and behavior in destructive ways.
In the book of Mark, Jesus promised spectacular events will occur in the world’s last days. These include the sun being darkened, the moon not giving light, and the stars falling from heaven. Jesus claimed he would then be seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and would send angels to gather his elect from throughout the earth. As for when this would occur, he assured his listeners: “I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."
Although he also explained that God alone knows the exact day and hour of the world’s end, Jesus clearly thought it would occur sometime during the lifetime of persons living in the first century C.E.
His belief is also evident in Mathew chapter 10. Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. He directed them to “not enter any Samaritan town; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” He disclosed that “before you have gone through all the towns of Israel the Son of Man will have come.”
The next generation will know you were wrong also.
You are correct. There actually is a very strong scriptural basis for a post-trib rapture. Further, the enemy wants to obfuscate and confuse the church on exactly what the tribulation is, and whether it is God's will.
I started out my walk as a pre-tribber, and defended it. But one day, the Lord asked me a simple question that caused my scriptural edifice I'd built concerning the rapture to crumble. I'll tell you the question in a minute.
First, let's see what the Bible does say about the rapture. The verse you quoted is one.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It does not place the rapture in a time line, but it does identify the elements of the rapture.
Lord descending
Archangels are involved
A trumpet sound
The dead being raised
Clouds of Heaven
The rest of us caught up in the air
So shall we ever be with the Lord - in other words we follow Him down to the earth.
As far as a timing being placed on it, we see the beginnings of a timing in 2 Thess
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This clearly states that there will be a deception coming about the timing of the rapture. Paul solemnly warns the believers to not be lead astray. He emphatically says that our "gathering together unto Him" CAN NOT HAPPEN until after two other things happen. The first is the great falling away must first take place. And the second is that the anti-Christ must sit in the temple of God shewing himself to be God.
Preterists claim that this happened in 70 AD just before the Temple was destroyed. I don't buy it. If it had happened, the Lord would be here right now. Why? Because of what was to have happened next:
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The Lord will consume the Wicked one when He returns.
So now we know that the rapture happens after the revelation of the antiChrist and the descration of the Temple. But Let us look a little farther to see if there are any other indications of the timeline. The next verse actually tells us when it happens.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This is not replete with details. The only details are the resurrection of the dead, the translation of the living, and the one key piece - The Trumpet Sound. But look at which trumpet it is. It is the Last Trumpet. The Last one, not the first one. There are 7 trumpets mentioned in Revelation and I could take you there and reason from that book, but really why do that. We know the rapture happens at the Last Trumpet.
So now we come to the little question that the Lord asked me. It was such a simple question. He asked me this: "How many trumpets are there after the LAST trumpet?"
I said, "This is a trick question, isn't it?"
He said again, "How many trumpets are there after the LAST trumpet?"
I said, "None"
Then He took me to Matthew:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Look! What do we have here:
Lord descending (Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory)
Archangels involved (he shall send his angels)
A trumpet sound (with a great sound of a trumpet)
The dead being raised (gather together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other)
Clouds of Heaven (coming in the clouds of heaven)
The rest of us caught up in the air (gather together his elect from the four winds - earth)
Every element of the rapture is there. I clearly saw it. And then He showed me when this takes place, one verse higher.
Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Then He explained the question to me so very clearly. If the rapture in 1 Cor 15 takes place at the last trumpet, and that trumpet occurs at the beginning of the tribulation, how can we possibly see a trumpet "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".
If the pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is true, the Bible can not be true, because there can not be another trumpet after the last trumpet has been blown.
Now here is a question for you. Who is the author of the tribulation? God or Satan?
Umm decided I don't really care if it's pre, mid or post trib. Until Christ comes, whenever it is, I still have to get through this life on earth. I'm more concerned with figuring out how to get through today w/o messing up. Believe that if I'm making every effort to sincerely follow the Lord, I'll be ready when He comes.
Replies
John 3:13 KJV
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Your the one that believes this book why don't ya know it?
Throughout the entire history of Christianity, however, many have held similar views. All those generations of Christians were wrong in thinking they were living in the last days. So should credence be given to identical claims being made by Christians today?
Their belief would be unimportant if it were just a harmless notion held by otherwise normal people. Unfortunately, the doctrine can influence attitudes and behavior in destructive ways.
In the book of Mark, Jesus promised spectacular events will occur in the world’s last days. These include the sun being darkened, the moon not giving light, and the stars falling from heaven. Jesus claimed he would then be seen coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and would send angels to gather his elect from throughout the earth. As for when this would occur, he assured his listeners: “I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."
Although he also explained that God alone knows the exact day and hour of the world’s end, Jesus clearly thought it would occur sometime during the lifetime of persons living in the first century C.E.
His belief is also evident in Mathew chapter 10. Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. He directed them to “not enter any Samaritan town; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” He disclosed that “before you have gone through all the towns of Israel the Son of Man will have come.”
The next generation will know you were wrong also.
Bro. Cope, I liked your in-depth answer and I agree with you!
I started out my walk as a pre-tribber, and defended it. But one day, the Lord asked me a simple question that caused my scriptural edifice I'd built concerning the rapture to crumble. I'll tell you the question in a minute.
First, let's see what the Bible does say about the rapture. The verse you quoted is one.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It does not place the rapture in a time line, but it does identify the elements of the rapture.
Lord descending
Archangels are involved
A trumpet sound
The dead being raised
Clouds of Heaven
The rest of us caught up in the air
So shall we ever be with the Lord - in other words we follow Him down to the earth.
As far as a timing being placed on it, we see the beginnings of a timing in 2 Thess
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This clearly states that there will be a deception coming about the timing of the rapture. Paul solemnly warns the believers to not be lead astray. He emphatically says that our "gathering together unto Him" CAN NOT HAPPEN until after two other things happen. The first is the great falling away must first take place. And the second is that the anti-Christ must sit in the temple of God shewing himself to be God.
Preterists claim that this happened in 70 AD just before the Temple was destroyed. I don't buy it. If it had happened, the Lord would be here right now. Why? Because of what was to have happened next:
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The Lord will consume the Wicked one when He returns.
So now we know that the rapture happens after the revelation of the antiChrist and the descration of the Temple. But Let us look a little farther to see if there are any other indications of the timeline. The next verse actually tells us when it happens.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This is not replete with details. The only details are the resurrection of the dead, the translation of the living, and the one key piece - The Trumpet Sound. But look at which trumpet it is. It is the Last Trumpet. The Last one, not the first one. There are 7 trumpets mentioned in Revelation and I could take you there and reason from that book, but really why do that. We know the rapture happens at the Last Trumpet.
So now we come to the little question that the Lord asked me. It was such a simple question. He asked me this: "How many trumpets are there after the LAST trumpet?"
I said, "This is a trick question, isn't it?"
He said again, "How many trumpets are there after the LAST trumpet?"
I said, "None"
Then He took me to Matthew:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Look! What do we have here:
Lord descending (Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory)
Archangels involved (he shall send his angels)
A trumpet sound (with a great sound of a trumpet)
The dead being raised (gather together his elect ...from one end of heaven to the other)
Clouds of Heaven (coming in the clouds of heaven)
The rest of us caught up in the air (gather together his elect from the four winds - earth)
Every element of the rapture is there. I clearly saw it. And then He showed me when this takes place, one verse higher.
Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Then He explained the question to me so very clearly. If the rapture in 1 Cor 15 takes place at the last trumpet, and that trumpet occurs at the beginning of the tribulation, how can we possibly see a trumpet "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".
If the pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is true, the Bible can not be true, because there can not be another trumpet after the last trumpet has been blown.
Now here is a question for you. Who is the author of the tribulation? God or Satan?
Bro Cope