Hard times are here. Worse times may be coming. Will the church be the solution? I think, if we are honest, we have to say "NO". The church, in it's current form, in it's current state cannot solve these problems. Surveys say that as 'the church' we're losing members, losing influence, even our losing the next generation, our own children. In this state, we can't solve our own problems. We can't solve the problems in our communities and in our nation. We can't UNLESS WE CHANGE. We need to become a society of FUNCTIONAL members of the body of Christ. I saw a pastor do something. One time. In Oklahoma City. He resigned. He stood in front of his congregation and said, "I cannot solve the problems that our community faces. And, I don't think solving some of these problems is my calling. But, I believe it is the calling of some of the members of this congregation. I invite you to step forward and take the mantel - to step forward and lead us to solutions that we, as a body, should provide." What emerged was a strong group of committed leaders. And, the pastor continued -- he continued in the role that God had called him to. He ministered the Word and he continued as a provider of pastoral care and support. But, his courage opened the way for a growing number of leaders to emerge. And, so, I ask you -- do we need pastors everywhere to resign their current resposibility to do it all? Do we need to hire them back to do what God has called them to do? Do they need to open that way for leadership teams to form who can 'take the bull by the horns' and work to solve the problems we see growing around us?

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  • Jack Frost said:

    The Kingdom of God is FLAT! It is wonderful to hear of stories and causes Great Hope to arise in my own heart in regard to the potential of what we believe to be true.

    Jack -- you are so speaking to what God is doing today! And I love the phrase above - I think I will adopt it..
    The kingdom of God is FLAT. It is one thing to talk about the 'priesthood of all believers.' It takes real work to live it out. And, then there is the additional complication that occurs when we organize to get things done.

    Go too far in one direction and all organization is invalidated. I don't know about you, but all by myself, I can do very little. Even the apostles realized they couldn't do it all and the first 'organizing' occurred. Side note -- just like the tendency to 'worship the rod that budded.' Rather than see this activity as an 'organic' and 'natural' response to the need, we 'cannonize' their activities and all churches create the 'position' of 'deacon'. Dah?

    Go too far in the other direction and then people can act like those with more responsiblities are on a higher 'spiritual' level. Nope, not the case.

    I like it... the Kingdom of God is FLAT.
  • Whoooaaaa, Juanita. Talk about opening up a can of worms and giving opportunity for some of us who are on one edge or another of the spreading concept of 'church'!!!

    I agree whole-heartedly that "The church, in it's current form, in it's current state cannot solve these problems." I think that is the real issue at hand here. It is something that is being 'discovered' across the world. Systems and licensing bodies around the globe are seeing the change and don't know how to deal with it. They are seeing the rejection of the status-quo by both the 'next generation' as well as the folks who have been the mainstay and majority of the church over the years.

    We are on the cusp of the "new church order"...to borrow from former President Bush. After years of being told to 'read your Bible' and 'check up on what I'm saying' sort of comments coming from the pulpit, many people have done just that- and found to their surprise that although the speaker may be speaking the truth, they are not speaking all of it much of the time. And upon further study, these same folks are finding that they too are hearing from God and that God still does speak to them even as He spoke to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and David and Solomon and Elihu and Samson and .... you get the picture.
    Further, once folks do actually read and begin to understand and hear the voice of God, change begins. There is understanding when they read Jesus' words 'Call no man Rabbi', and ask why we call certain people in particular areas of ministry by their gift as if it were a name. There is understanding when Paul's writings are read and it is clear that he tells us that no one gift is better or above another; that we are all part of one body. Not only is it wrong for one part to say of another 'I have no need of you', by the same reasoning no one part should say of another 'I am better' or 'I am more important' than another.

    The "unchurched" often see this dichotomy within the church. Many unchurched are not non-christian. In fact, many of the folks that I know that do not 'belong' to a church or who do not regularly attend a church have a better understanding of who God is and live a more godly life than many of the folks I have known that do go regularly, and who have signed on the dotted line. They care more for their neighbor and give more to the needy, care for the sick, visit the people in prison...things that Jesus said we should do. They do not sit as part of a congregation and wait for the 'visitation minister' to go do these things. The get up and do it.

    Now in the midst of this 'revolution', many are also becoming part of community. NOT COMMUNE! Community. Sharing with others in need and in plenty. Being in very regular communication and relationship with other believers, regardless of their church affiliation.

    I don't think it is a matter of the leadership (as we have seen it develop over the last 50+ years) finally teaching us what is best or what is right. It isn't a matter of them stepping down or out of the way. It IS a matter of us as believers getting off our tails and DOING what we have been called to do: BEING ministers. Paul has told us over and over....You are ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anyone who teaches anything other than what Paul taught is not of God. You can read it yourself. It is there....

    What has happened with this group in OK is beautiful. It is a beginning of understanding and then moving forward from the point of understanding to the actual.

    The Kingdom of God is FLAT! It is wonderful to hear of stories and causes Great Hope to arise in my own heart in regard to the potential of what we believe to be true.
  • It is interesting when we look at churches that are thriving and growing. The scenario described above is taking place in those churches. During my research for Kingdom's Visitor Retention Program, I got to take a look at the data from a representation of the top 4% of the churches in our nation that are reaching the unchurched for Christ and keeping them. They are growing at phenomenal rates. One of the characteristics that those churches have in common is that the pastors "give ministry away" to the people of the congregation. Many of those churches have most of their people involved in ministry, and the results they are seeing are great. It is one of the principles that the the churches in Kingdom's Visitor Retention Program learn. And it works as long as it is preceded by prayer and the churches look for where God is already working and join him.
  • Pauli said:
    Sadly, the church is not really obeying God. If Pastors would just get out of the way, and LET GOD BE GOD, we would NOT have these problems....

    I don't think it would see it this way...
    I know many godly pastors. Is it the Pastor who in 'in charge' of each individual and their service (ministry) to God? I would say, "No". Only a small percent of ministry (service) happens when we gather. The rest of the time we are on our own and we should be serving (ministering).

    I am talking about a Nehemiah vision - each person labors on their portion of the wall. In the leadership of the church, the call is ~unless it is happening~ for the pastors to 'make room' for other gifted leaders. But, we, as individuals are never limited if we will listen to Him for our orders. We are responsible for our responses. Maybe any one of us might think, "If I was doing that job (like the pastor's job), I'd do it so much better.' But, when we stand before Him, he will ask me how I did the work that I was assigned - He won't ask me about the pastor.

    Let's put our hand to the work that He assigns us!
  • The church can't solve the problems but we know who can. We must begin to get back to the Word and the Lord and become His hands, His feet etc. Check out my discussion. Blessings
  • Here's my take, Gary ~~ God has given us everything we need to ADVANCE his KINGDOM and push EVIL back.
    I don't think we are waiting for God to act ~~ I think he is waiting for us to get with his 'program.' That is why we created this site... so we can get with HIS VISION and MISSION and make a difference! :-)
  • I think we are in the time that Jesus wrote about in Mark 13 verse 30 in that generation. I have said several times I am here at Team Sarah because I think she will soon be President or VP and when this occurs people will think oh good everything will be ok now and that is when Christ will come, Like a theif in the night. Jesus says Watch and Pray! Well there sure is a lot to see and much to pray about. We are not going to fix nothing, God will when Jesus comes and takes his own out of this mess! Stay strong and believe in Him!
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